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Indian Imports
- Thread starter bingo1952
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varsity07840
45 Cal.
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Help me out here. On this forum you describe this gun as ready for the trash heap and potentially dangerous to shoot. In the classifieds you list it as in "great" condition. Is it me or is there a bit of a conflict?
Duane
Duane
Russ T Frizzen
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Perhaps an India built gun in great condition is still ready for the trash heap....
As I stated in the ad, and I thought here, Middlesex has returned the barrel to me and explained the problem was that the breech plug was not correctly tightened, and they have tightened it for me. I have compared it with the photos I took, and the timing marks are different.
I do not like India guns, and I want to get rid of this one. However it has been proofed, and the original defect (an untightened breech plug) has been fixed, and water and oil no longer seep out of it. According to the manufacturer, it is now safe to shoot. I don't want the gun, but if those who own and shoot India guns like them let them buy it.
Mechanically, the gun is in "great" condition now. Only the lock is problematic, but it still functions. At $490, as that includes shipping, that's already a $140 loss at least for me. Just because I have a low opinion of India guns, I have no desire to take a further loss and in effect donate $400 to the "Pete Plunkett retirement fund."
I don't like India guns, but I have a signed statement from the manufacturer (which I will include in the sale) that the barrel has been proofed. They have stamped the barrel as such (why they can't proof all their guns I don't know). They have tightened the breech plug, and water and oil do not seep out anymore. Any feelings on my part that remain about the durability of the firearm in and of itself are pure speculation, all actual issues have been resolved.
If you don't like India guns, I'd say don't buy it. But if you do, here is one that has been fixed, proofed, and partially defarbed for $140 less than what it will cost you new.
If nobody takes it here that's fine, I'll trade it to Track of the Wolf for some off their used Pedersoli 1809 Potsdam.
I do not like India guns, and I want to get rid of this one. However it has been proofed, and the original defect (an untightened breech plug) has been fixed, and water and oil no longer seep out of it. According to the manufacturer, it is now safe to shoot. I don't want the gun, but if those who own and shoot India guns like them let them buy it.
Mechanically, the gun is in "great" condition now. Only the lock is problematic, but it still functions. At $490, as that includes shipping, that's already a $140 loss at least for me. Just because I have a low opinion of India guns, I have no desire to take a further loss and in effect donate $400 to the "Pete Plunkett retirement fund."
I don't like India guns, but I have a signed statement from the manufacturer (which I will include in the sale) that the barrel has been proofed. They have stamped the barrel as such (why they can't proof all their guns I don't know). They have tightened the breech plug, and water and oil do not seep out anymore. Any feelings on my part that remain about the durability of the firearm in and of itself are pure speculation, all actual issues have been resolved.
If you don't like India guns, I'd say don't buy it. But if you do, here is one that has been fixed, proofed, and partially defarbed for $140 less than what it will cost you new.
If nobody takes it here that's fine, I'll trade it to Track of the Wolf for some off their used Pedersoli 1809 Potsdam.
AS Duane said help us out here. If oil and water ran out of the breech because the breech plug was loose and then it was tightened is the in letting on the tang messed up? You fired the gun before you sent it back to Pete. How did that work with a loose breech plug that water and oil could get through? I would like to see a better picture of the gun and the tang area.
BEP
40 Cal.
I'm kind of curious - wouldn't tightening the breechplug rotate the barrel and re-position the touch-hole? 
sneezy
sneezy
Here is a link to a thread on www.cwreenactors.com/forum that has pictures of my gun before MVT fixed it. http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7379
THe tang inletting isn't messed up, but you can see tool marks now from where the breech removal tool marked it.
I might take it out of the stock to take more photos.
As to firing it, honestly it fired fine. I never even realized the breech plug was a problem until I was cleaning it one day and on a lark sprung my rammer, but reversed like what we do in CW reenacting when we've fired a lot but still need to inspect our weapons. That's when I found the "slot" which was a touch hole cut through the breech. About the same time I read rumors of a Loyalist Arms Lorenz failing a 100 grain blank proof, so I decided to blank proof my musket. It was going over the barrel I discovered powder residue on the underside of the breech, decided to try the water test, and BOOM I found the problem. My initial reaction was, since the site advertises them as being made with "threaded and tight" breech plugs, the blank must have backed it out. Then MVT confirmed all it was (or at least, all they claim it was) was that the guy in India failed to screw it on tight.
I have a guy willing to trade it for a used '63 Springfield. I wanted a flintlock but I think I would be open to that kind of trade. We'll see. My flinter might have to wait for a while.
THe tang inletting isn't messed up, but you can see tool marks now from where the breech removal tool marked it.
I might take it out of the stock to take more photos.
As to firing it, honestly it fired fine. I never even realized the breech plug was a problem until I was cleaning it one day and on a lark sprung my rammer, but reversed like what we do in CW reenacting when we've fired a lot but still need to inspect our weapons. That's when I found the "slot" which was a touch hole cut through the breech. About the same time I read rumors of a Loyalist Arms Lorenz failing a 100 grain blank proof, so I decided to blank proof my musket. It was going over the barrel I discovered powder residue on the underside of the breech, decided to try the water test, and BOOM I found the problem. My initial reaction was, since the site advertises them as being made with "threaded and tight" breech plugs, the blank must have backed it out. Then MVT confirmed all it was (or at least, all they claim it was) was that the guy in India failed to screw it on tight.
I have a guy willing to trade it for a used '63 Springfield. I wanted a flintlock but I think I would be open to that kind of trade. We'll see. My flinter might have to wait for a while.
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That's quite all right and I understand.
As I understand, this is how all of their '16s are made and it is "safe, like an original, blah blah" but I don't buy it. But to MVTs stalwart supporters I figure they might like to have this musket. MVT assures me it is safe, and I don't mind providing all the documentation and emails I have received from Pete on the subject.
I may just take that trade offer I got. It will certainly be simpler and would give me a musket now, even if it is one I don't really need.
As I understand, this is how all of their '16s are made and it is "safe, like an original, blah blah" but I don't buy it. But to MVTs stalwart supporters I figure they might like to have this musket. MVT assures me it is safe, and I don't mind providing all the documentation and emails I have received from Pete on the subject.
I may just take that trade offer I got. It will certainly be simpler and would give me a musket now, even if it is one I don't really need.
I will say though that although the breech plug is tightened, it still fits in the stock fine and the touch hole and barrel are where they should be. I have not fired the musket since though, nor do I intend to. It is probably safe... that is, as safe as any MVT gun, but I myself am done with the musket.
Umm excuse me? What exactly do you mean by that? If you don't want the gun don't buy it, that's fine I don't care. In fact if I wanted to unload it as you said I would cover up all the problems with it, lie through my teeth about it, and leave it on some sap who doesn't know what they are getting.
The facts are these.
I got the gun as a gift. I thought it pretty shoddy that it was blatantly a rework of their 1777 model. The fact a number went on sale at Track of the Wolf and Gunbroker right after they got it proves that it wasn't just me who was displeased with it. But you know what, it was a gift. And I wasn't going to sell it or send it back and insult the people who gave it to me.
So I reshape the butt. I like it. I have been up with pictures about it. If you don't like it, or think the MVT high comb butt on what is supposed to be a combless musket looks better fine. Again, don't buy it.
Then I find the breech plug problem. I expose it here, on RevList, and on cwreenactors.com. I get the musket fixed, and explain that it is fixed. I explain what MVT told me. You want the emails from the company? You want photos?
Now I have lost faith in the product. Why? I think it is darn near criminal to sell a musket with a half screwed in breech plug. But MVT now claims it is tight. It doesn't fail my original test that discovered the problem. Add to that I was skeptical after I learned about the Bess that exploded, and then finding this defect alarmed me. But the company now claims it is safe.
So Mr. Runnball, not that you know the specifics since you haven't been in communication with MVT nor do you own the musket, how did I go hacking on it? Or how am I wanting to unload it on some poor unknowing soul? Are you saying I hacked up the breech and barrel, shipped it to Middlesex and it is magically back in one piece? Are you saying I went to all the trouble to magically pull out the breech plug (without leaving tool marks being the novice I am), took the pictures of oil seeping out, then sent it to Middlesex and they, being experts, screwed the breech in with and left the tang with tool marks?
Sir, you have no idea of what you are talking about. Do not accuse me when you do not know the facts. I have been upfront about every problem with this musket. I have been upfront, and provided pictures mind you, of everything I have done to it. So please, in your infinite and all seeing wisdom (the very man who started this thread on India guns... I see you have an MVT Cookson. I can understand how you would not want to believe MVT would sell a gun like this, but that doesn't make it untrue) tell me where exactly I went to "hacking" and how I am unloading it on an "unknowing soul."
The facts are these.
I got the gun as a gift. I thought it pretty shoddy that it was blatantly a rework of their 1777 model. The fact a number went on sale at Track of the Wolf and Gunbroker right after they got it proves that it wasn't just me who was displeased with it. But you know what, it was a gift. And I wasn't going to sell it or send it back and insult the people who gave it to me.
So I reshape the butt. I like it. I have been up with pictures about it. If you don't like it, or think the MVT high comb butt on what is supposed to be a combless musket looks better fine. Again, don't buy it.
Then I find the breech plug problem. I expose it here, on RevList, and on cwreenactors.com. I get the musket fixed, and explain that it is fixed. I explain what MVT told me. You want the emails from the company? You want photos?
Now I have lost faith in the product. Why? I think it is darn near criminal to sell a musket with a half screwed in breech plug. But MVT now claims it is tight. It doesn't fail my original test that discovered the problem. Add to that I was skeptical after I learned about the Bess that exploded, and then finding this defect alarmed me. But the company now claims it is safe.
So Mr. Runnball, not that you know the specifics since you haven't been in communication with MVT nor do you own the musket, how did I go hacking on it? Or how am I wanting to unload it on some poor unknowing soul? Are you saying I hacked up the breech and barrel, shipped it to Middlesex and it is magically back in one piece? Are you saying I went to all the trouble to magically pull out the breech plug (without leaving tool marks being the novice I am), took the pictures of oil seeping out, then sent it to Middlesex and they, being experts, screwed the breech in with and left the tang with tool marks?
Sir, you have no idea of what you are talking about. Do not accuse me when you do not know the facts. I have been upfront about every problem with this musket. I have been upfront, and provided pictures mind you, of everything I have done to it. So please, in your infinite and all seeing wisdom (the very man who started this thread on India guns... I see you have an MVT Cookson. I can understand how you would not want to believe MVT would sell a gun like this, but that doesn't make it untrue) tell me where exactly I went to "hacking" and how I am unloading it on an "unknowing soul."
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All the ones I have seen, fired and inspected have been better then average quality.
Now as far as this gent with the springfield, I think since you went through all this toil on the repairing////Why the heck not keep it.
You have went through all the manure with your arm ,maybe its time for it to prove its usefulness to you!
My troublesome piedersoli, in spite of all the poor materials and 3nd rate workmanship in its production... its staying with me,
after I finish all the needed repairs to make it a shooter to be relyied apon "or at least a shooter close to my Loyalist musket" I figure all the pain in the neck stuff will only add to my memories and attachment to the piece.
Then again I am aplenty stubborn
:wink:
Rob
Now as far as this gent with the springfield, I think since you went through all this toil on the repairing////Why the heck not keep it.
You have went through all the manure with your arm ,maybe its time for it to prove its usefulness to you!
My troublesome piedersoli, in spite of all the poor materials and 3nd rate workmanship in its production... its staying with me,
after I finish all the needed repairs to make it a shooter to be relyied apon "or at least a shooter close to my Loyalist musket" I figure all the pain in the neck stuff will only add to my memories and attachment to the piece.
Then again I am aplenty stubborn
:wink:
Rob
varsity07840
45 Cal.
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JGPrince said:
At the risk of taking this to the ad nauseam level, your comments here are causing, I believe, a number of us to scratch our heads. You're going to pass along a musket that you think is PROBABLY SAFE. An assumption on your part that the buyer or trader knows about a possible safety issue doesn't matter. YOU KNOW ABOUT IT AND YOU DON'T WANT TO SHOOT THE GUN ANYMORE EVEN THOUGH IT SUPPOSEDLY HAS BEEN PROOFED!! It's your responsibility even if the guy is aware of the problem. It's kind of like not letting a guy drive drunk even if he says he's ok. You bought a musket that you knew was not an accurate representation of an 1816. Why? According to your posts, you really wanted an 1816 and that's all you could afford. Don't take advantage of someone who may be in the same boat as you. He really wants that gun and he's willing to ignore the problems. Except in his case it's a possible safety issue, not one of authenticity.
If it was my gun, and obviously it's not, I'd look at two options. One, find a stout tree to wrap it around, and chalk it up to experience. I've eaten alot more than $600.00 over the years in gun deals. Two. Check how wide the barrel channel is at the breechend. If it's around 1 1/4"
(the correct width for an 1816), get a new 42" barrel from Dan Whitacre and shorten the stock to accept it.You 'll have to weld an extension to the tang because the original one on your barrel is much longer. Get MVTC to fix the lock. Now you'll have a shooter. I don't think a trade in with TOW is an option. If Dave Ripplinger reads this forum, I don't think he'd be interested.
Duane
Duane, you are fully correct. That is why if you look at everywhere I advertise the musket, not only do I mention the problems I have had with it, but also that has a 46 inch barrel and that the lock is problematic. I don't want to just drop the musket on somebody unawares. That is why I have all but shot myself in the foot, regarding here, TOW, and even the CWReenactors forums (though one gent still wants it).
As to whether the gun is safe, that I cannot answer. In its past condition it was not safe. Of that I was sure. However, that defect has been fixed (or so the manufacturer claims). It does not fail my test. I cannot say that it is perfectly safe now, but nor can I say with absolute certainty that it is unsafe. What I can say (and what I have said) is that the manufacturer claims it is now safe, and now the gun is no more unsafe or no more safe than Mr. Runnball's MVTC Cookson fowler. I myself don't trust an India made gun. I won't lie about it. But if, other than a troublesome but still firing lock, it is no better or no worse safety wise than any other India gun, why then should I be derided for selling it? Especially when I am taking pains to point out to every prospective buyer about all previous safety issues, authenticity issues, lock issue, and the proofing (which, speaking of Mr. Ripplinger, I'll post his thoughts on the proofing).
It isn't like I'm saying I just bought the gun, don't want it, all sales final. If an MVT or India gun fan has no problem owning it, even with all I have said, where is it irresponsible to sell it to him. Add to that, if the manufacturer now claims the defect is fixed and was given back to me safe, then can I not assume that the musket is now just as safe as any other Indian made gun? (This doesn't entail whether or not Indian made guns are safe, obviously).
As to TOW, they have sold the 1816s before so they know they are not authentic. I have told him of the problems I have had (both lock and the breech) and that MVT proofed it. He knows as much as any buyer of the musket would.
Here is Mr. Ripplinger had to say. On the proofing:
As to whether the gun is safe, that I cannot answer. In its past condition it was not safe. Of that I was sure. However, that defect has been fixed (or so the manufacturer claims). It does not fail my test. I cannot say that it is perfectly safe now, but nor can I say with absolute certainty that it is unsafe. What I can say (and what I have said) is that the manufacturer claims it is now safe, and now the gun is no more unsafe or no more safe than Mr. Runnball's MVTC Cookson fowler. I myself don't trust an India made gun. I won't lie about it. But if, other than a troublesome but still firing lock, it is no better or no worse safety wise than any other India gun, why then should I be derided for selling it? Especially when I am taking pains to point out to every prospective buyer about all previous safety issues, authenticity issues, lock issue, and the proofing (which, speaking of Mr. Ripplinger, I'll post his thoughts on the proofing).
It isn't like I'm saying I just bought the gun, don't want it, all sales final. If an MVT or India gun fan has no problem owning it, even with all I have said, where is it irresponsible to sell it to him. Add to that, if the manufacturer now claims the defect is fixed and was given back to me safe, then can I not assume that the musket is now just as safe as any other Indian made gun? (This doesn't entail whether or not Indian made guns are safe, obviously).
As to TOW, they have sold the 1816s before so they know they are not authentic. I have told him of the problems I have had (both lock and the breech) and that MVT proofed it. He knows as much as any buyer of the musket would.
Here is Mr. Ripplinger had to say. On the proofing:
Didn't you say before that the barrel was cracked? Where did the cracks go?
Also, why is the vendor's name deleted on that email you posted? I've never heard who sold the defective Bess, but I believe you did imply at least once that it was MVT.
Also, why is the vendor's name deleted on that email you posted? I've never heard who sold the defective Bess, but I believe you did imply at least once that it was MVT.
No the barrel was not cracked. It had some dents and dings, but the problem was the breech plug (I thought) was backed out by my double blank test. Further MVT took measurements all over the gun before and after the proof, and the metal did not expand or change in diameter. The barrel itself is not cracked, I saw what I thought *Might* be the start of a crack but it appears it was just a scratch. Paranoia set in on my part after finding an un tightened breech plug on what was advertised as a live firing musket.
I never stated it was MVT, I stated that of the three manufacturers Loyalist Arms has proof markings on their 3rd Model Besses, so it could only have been a Middlesex Gun or a Military Heritage gun.
The vendor was deleted because as no one seems to know who's gun it was, and if what Mr. Ripplinger has told me is correct I'm not going to be the one to divulge it to the public. There is a reason no one seems to know and I don't want lawyers breathing down my butt.
I never stated it was MVT, I stated that of the three manufacturers Loyalist Arms has proof markings on their 3rd Model Besses, so it could only have been a Middlesex Gun or a Military Heritage gun.
The vendor was deleted because as no one seems to know who's gun it was, and if what Mr. Ripplinger has told me is correct I'm not going to be the one to divulge it to the public. There is a reason no one seems to know and I don't want lawyers breathing down my butt.
Mike Brooks
Cannon
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You can not further tighten up a breech plug and put the barrel back in the stock and have the touch hole line up with the stock. The barrel pins will also be out of alignment as well as the tang screw.
But, on the other hand, these things are so poorly made maybe you can........
But, on the other hand, these things are so poorly made maybe you can........
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is this thread getting dog knotted??? :yakyak:
or WHAT?
Ofcourse the pins and touch hole wont line up.
or WHAT?
Ofcourse the pins and touch hole wont line up.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Well, fortunately there are no pins on this musket (it has barrel bands) but I agree, I can't see how the vendor (who was NOT the manufacturer) "tightened" the breech plug without causing the vent to be misaligned. :shocked2: Have a new barrel made, its cheaper than buying a new musket and just keep the gun. I don't think they did anything to that barrel and you will always wonder. Oh, and the "proof marks" on the Loyalist guns mean nothing, they are just copied from the markings on British originals, Loyalist doesn't "proof" their guns in any meaningful way. Others use them too. (Discriminating General, etc.)
