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Indian Imports
- Thread starter bingo1952
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Well, this is the argument for either buying a known brand or saving up and buying a custom gun. Saw a lantern once that was on consignment in an antique shop and was being offerred as an "old time" lamp. Had a sticker on the bottom, said "Made in Pakistan."
Just got my new "Virginia" rifle today and boy, am I glad I saved my money up and waited. I'll likely have none of these issues, with a Colerain barrel and a Chambers lock.
Just got my new "Virginia" rifle today and boy, am I glad I saved my money up and waited. I'll likely have none of these issues, with a Colerain barrel and a Chambers lock.
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:thumbsup:
Well I'm the fellow who offered him the Springfield. I'm no unknowing fool, I understand whats wrong with the gun. I just need a project. Maybe I'll rebarrel it, maybe I'll proof it, maybe I'll hang it on the wall, If we do end up trading. Mr. Prince was very clear about the issues with the gun, and was in no way trying to "unload" it on me (no pun intended). So all you folks that are harassing him about selling or trading, as long as he disclosed all the problems, whats your issue with it?
Nuff said,
Mike
Nuff said,
Mike
What I cant understand is how you tighten up a loose breech plug? Did it turn a complete revolution and index OK?. Maybe the plug was removed and shortened and machined so it would go an extra revolution and tighten things up. I doubt Middlesex would have sent it back unsafe..................Bob
I've got the barrel out of the stock, I'll have pictures up soon. It looks like they did a full turn it looks like they went almost one full turn clockwise with the breech.
As to the LA proofmarks you are right, they mean nothing. What I mean is on the three vendors 3rd Model Besses, DG and Middlesex do not put proof marks on them (look at their websites). Only LA puts the replica proof marks on their 3rd model Besses. (DG and MVT put proof marks on their other Besses though).
The Bess that exploded had no replica proof markings, there for it was not an LA gun and could only be an MH/DG gun or an MVT gun. And the finish was the same as my MVT gun.
As to the LA proofmarks you are right, they mean nothing. What I mean is on the three vendors 3rd Model Besses, DG and Middlesex do not put proof marks on them (look at their websites). Only LA puts the replica proof marks on their 3rd model Besses. (DG and MVT put proof marks on their other Besses though).
The Bess that exploded had no replica proof markings, there for it was not an LA gun and could only be an MH/DG gun or an MVT gun. And the finish was the same as my MVT gun.
1816 photos.
Here are all the photos I could take. Low quality b/c of my cell camera, but it's all I've got.
The original bottom of the breech. Note how the upper timing mark is slightly to the LEFT of the bottom timing mark.
The new timing mark on the musket. Note how they more or less line up.
Note the tool marks on the left side of the tang. Here is what I don't get. The marks would indicate they turned it counterclockwise (loosening it, I would thing) to make the marks match up, but water no longer seeps out of the breech plug.
The before photo, showing no tool marks.
Here is where the touch hole is. Still at the bottom of the pan, but more or less where it was.
So if MVT in effect loosened the plug, why does water not leak out?
Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE yet another excuse to throw this musket in Pete Plunkett's face. IF you guys can give it to me I'll happily take it. But the fact is water no longer leaks out, so I can't say that the musket is unsafe. Or at least, as I said, any less safe than any other India gun.
Here are all the photos I could take. Low quality b/c of my cell camera, but it's all I've got.
The original bottom of the breech. Note how the upper timing mark is slightly to the LEFT of the bottom timing mark.
The new timing mark on the musket. Note how they more or less line up.
Note the tool marks on the left side of the tang. Here is what I don't get. The marks would indicate they turned it counterclockwise (loosening it, I would thing) to make the marks match up, but water no longer seeps out of the breech plug.
The before photo, showing no tool marks.
Here is where the touch hole is. Still at the bottom of the pan, but more or less where it was.
So if MVT in effect loosened the plug, why does water not leak out?
Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE yet another excuse to throw this musket in Pete Plunkett's face. IF you guys can give it to me I'll happily take it. But the fact is water no longer leaks out, so I can't say that the musket is unsafe. Or at least, as I said, any less safe than any other India gun.
" What I mean is on the three vendors 3rd Model Besses, DG and Middlesex do not put proof marks on them (look at their websites). Only LA puts the replica proof marks on their 3rd model Besses. (DG and MVT put proof marks on their other Besses though)."
The 3rd. Model Brown Bess I purchased from MVT on 8/29/2007 has reproduction proof marks on it. So at some point in time their process changed.
The 3rd. Model Brown Bess I purchased from MVT on 8/29/2007 has reproduction proof marks on it. So at some point in time their process changed.
Really? That's interesting. Their older ones didn't have any. I don't know when they changed though.
I suppose the next obvious question to determine the maker of the blown musket then (to confirm it) is to ask when was it made.
Also I believe I've read that the India guns are done in short production runs of about 25 apiece, all with minor variations (look at how the front swivel changes position on their long land besses, from the correct to the incorrect position and back again).
This is all confusing, eh? (That's the other reason I won't reveal what Mr. Ripplinger told me. If he is wrong, that could make us, or at least me, guilty of libel if I go around saying that so and so DID make the musket).
I suppose the next obvious question to determine the maker of the blown musket then (to confirm it) is to ask when was it made.
Also I believe I've read that the India guns are done in short production runs of about 25 apiece, all with minor variations (look at how the front swivel changes position on their long land besses, from the correct to the incorrect position and back again).
This is all confusing, eh? (That's the other reason I won't reveal what Mr. Ripplinger told me. If he is wrong, that could make us, or at least me, guilty of libel if I go around saying that so and so DID make the musket).
I find this ver interesting, I have seen many Muskets from India, and all the ones I have seen are solid well built arms, as good as any I have seen.
But I guess everyone has there own experiences.
Now have you tried proofing the barell??
You know with a ball and powder?
Sometimes its better to light a candle then to curse the darkness, take out the barell and proof it, if it goes south, send it to one of the barell makers to have its mesurements copied and get yourself a barell.
Looks like it has the possibility to be a nice gun, and you did do all the work to it....
I figure your never going to get the coinage matching your annoyance back to you, so why not make the best of a bad situation.
Then just dont do buisness with the company anymore.
Many experienced shooters enjoy firing middlesex arms.
I enjoy shooting my loyalist arms,
when people say crass things about them on the internet it steams me aplenty,
as anyone who has held my gonnes would attest to their beauty and quality
Rob
But I guess everyone has there own experiences.
Now have you tried proofing the barell??
You know with a ball and powder?
Sometimes its better to light a candle then to curse the darkness, take out the barell and proof it, if it goes south, send it to one of the barell makers to have its mesurements copied and get yourself a barell.
Looks like it has the possibility to be a nice gun, and you did do all the work to it....
I figure your never going to get the coinage matching your annoyance back to you, so why not make the best of a bad situation.
Then just dont do buisness with the company anymore.
Many experienced shooters enjoy firing middlesex arms.
I enjoy shooting my loyalist arms,
when people say crass things about them on the internet it steams me aplenty,
as anyone who has held my gonnes would attest to their beauty and quality
Rob
Mike Brooks
Cannon
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Boy I guess. I haven't seen one yet I'd lay any cash out on.
Supposedly Middlesex proofed it with 138 grains 2F and 2 .672cal lead balls.
However, if Mr. Ripplinger is correct (see my previous post) then proofing of these drawn over mandrel barrels is all but pointless, as they only fail (if made poorly) after a series of shocks (i.e. repeated firings), not one massive proofing.
Thus, if true, it doesn't matter if you "proof" an India gun, because of the manufacture it will either fail or it won't, and you won't know until it just happens after repeated firing.
However, if Mr. Ripplinger is correct (see my previous post) then proofing of these drawn over mandrel barrels is all but pointless, as they only fail (if made poorly) after a series of shocks (i.e. repeated firings), not one massive proofing.
Thus, if true, it doesn't matter if you "proof" an India gun, because of the manufacture it will either fail or it won't, and you won't know until it just happens after repeated firing.
Robert Egler
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Aggie85 said:
I’m not trying to give you a hard time here, :surrender: I just want to make sure I understand your statement. Am I correct in interpreting your statement as meaning that the proof marks are there as reproductions of the original gun's proof marks, and not as indications that this gun's actual barrel was proofed?
Russ T Frizzen
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Oh, I dunno, Mike. Some of them look O.K. from a distance--say 12,000 miles or so...
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Squirrel Tail said:Aggie85 said:
I’m not trying to give you a hard time here, :surrender: I just want to make sure I understand your statement. Am I correct in interpreting your statement as meaning that the proof marks are there as reproductions of the original gun's proof marks, and not as indications that this gun's actual barrel was proofed?
Yup, they mean nothing.
Aggie85 Said:"
The 3rd. Model Brown Bess I purchased from MVT on 8/29/2007 has reproduction proof marks on it. So at some point in time their process changed.
I’m not trying to give you a hard time here, I just want to make sure I understand your statement. Am I correct in interpreting your statement as meaning that the proof marks are there as reproductions of the original gun's proof marks, and not as indications that this gun's actual barrel was proofed?
You are correct. That is why I used the word reproduction. They are there for 100% show, and nothing else. Did mic out the barrel at 15 spots along the length of the barrel before performing my own double load proof, for what that's worth. I feel as safe shooting it as I do my Chambers English Sporting Rifle and New England Colonial Fowler.
The 3rd. Model Brown Bess I purchased from MVT on 8/29/2007 has reproduction proof marks on it. So at some point in time their process changed.
I’m not trying to give you a hard time here, I just want to make sure I understand your statement. Am I correct in interpreting your statement as meaning that the proof marks are there as reproductions of the original gun's proof marks, and not as indications that this gun's actual barrel was proofed?
You are correct. That is why I used the word reproduction. They are there for 100% show, and nothing else. Did mic out the barrel at 15 spots along the length of the barrel before performing my own double load proof, for what that's worth. I feel as safe shooting it as I do my Chambers English Sporting Rifle and New England Colonial Fowler.
