Indian-Made Besses?

[Iron Jim Rackham]

The India pattern guns were adopted in 1794 and produced in huge quantities through 1814. The New Land musket may have been adopted by or before 1805, but didn't see substantial production until after 1815. It was an interesting musket insofar as it dispensed with pins in favor of keys, and the butt stock and wrist transition was different from any of the earlier muskets.

Unfortunately I can't find pictures of any, but I recall having seen one with a rear sight. This may have been a later addition, but it always struck me as unusual to see a rear sight on a military smoothbore. If you have Darling's book, I'd be curious to know if he pictures any with rear sights. The last time I saw one was almost 40 years ago, and the person selling it swore it was all original. I remember it has a double throated cock like the later production India pattern guns but was much plainer (and less attractive) than any of the other "Brown Bess" muskets I'd seen.

 

[tmdreb]

I've seen pics of one or two with rear sites, and they often have the semi-pistol grip triggerguard and sometimes a shorter length. I believe them to be a light infantry version. There was a thread about this awhile back.

The stocks have become considerably better over time on the Indian repros. The first one I saw was sitting in a rack with a Pedersoli and seemed to have fully 50% more wood than the Italian reproduction. All the ones I've seen and held lately have a LOT less wood and balance very nicely.

 

[Wes/Tex]

You got me there! Was having a Senior-Moment there too!! The India Pattern guns, like all the other models, were made by the English makers. The East India Company was only required to return, to the Ordnance Board, the muskets it had in stock due to the large requirement for guns for the Army and militias. Only the part about sending them back to England stuck in the old brain box for some reason. :shocked2:

The New Land Pattern started production after the Peace of Amiens. Due to the rapid events of war starting again 16 months later, the New Land Pattern was only issued to the three Foot Guard regiments and the 4th (King's Own) before the Ordnace Board mandated the stoppage of all models except the India Pattern. There was also a New Land Pattern for Light Infantry model made for the 43rd & 52nd Regiments (first Light Infantry trained regiments), issued from about 1812. The musket had a flat lock and cock with reinforcement, scroll trigger-guard, fixed rear sight and browned 39" barrel. Besides the 43rd and 52nd Regiments, the Light Infantry Pattern musket was eventially issued to the 68th, 71st and 85th Regiments as well as those battallions of the 60th (Royal American Regiment) not equipped with the Baker Rifle.

 

[mastrsgt]

Jim,

Darling does not picture one with a rear sight. He shows four views of the musket and in both side views the rear portion of the barrel seems smooth. The bayonet stud is visible so if there were a rear sight you would probably be able to see it.

Don R

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I thought it was unusual at the time I saw it, thus it was probably a later addition. The person who owned it was very proud of it, but I was frankly more interested in his other muskets. While the gun was in very good shape, it struck me as very unattractive when compared to earlier muskets or even banded guns of the same period. At the time he wanted $400.00 for it. For $400.00 you could have picked up a nice custom gun then.

 

[mastrsgt]

Jim,

Again, I agree with your assessment of the appearance. From the pictures in Darling's book, 3 by the way and not 4, it just looks plain. The comb is very plain and the handrail is missing that was present on the Land Pattern muskets. it also lacks an entry pipe for the ramrod. The reinforced cock does not appeal to me, appearnace wise, like the swan neck does. Darling states " The arm was well-made but much plainer construction than either the old Land Service or India Pattern arms."

Don R

 

[Wes/Tex]

The only places I've seen actual pictures of the "Light Infantry" version of the New land Pattern are in the following:

"Wellington's Infantry (2)", Osprey 'Men At Arms Series' #119

"British Redcoat (2)" Osprey 'Warrior Series' #20

These are English books with top quality photos and color illustrations.

 

[benvenuto]

"The Worlds Great Guns" by Frederick Wilkinson has a comparison photo with the different models of bess including the new land and new land light infantry model