This is something Blair sent me after I questioned the safety aspect. As I have said, my Loyalist is great.
David
This particular post (
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/for ... om-Brigade
), was recently brought to my attention, and since our company, Loyalist Arms & Repairs Ltd., have been asked about "Indian guns" by reenactors in the past, I felt it best to make the effort to inform as many folks as I can about the general situation regarding "Indian made" muskets. Perhaps it will be an education to some or simply a confirmation to others.
Before I get into a detailed discussion on "Indian Muskets", I must state at this point, that I am in full support of having muskets proofed before being allowed on the field.
I completely agree with this policy for verified proofing and endorse it 100%. It's about time some sort of stand was taken in this regard.
I do however, believe this policy is somewhat short sighted though.
I strongly suggest, ALL muzzle loading firearms would fall under this requirement, no matter who the manufacturer is and no matter where it was made, custom hand assembled or mass produced.
Our policy at Loyalist Arms has always been focused on safety.
That is why we include loading and proofing data with all our muskets, and clearly state on our web site and elsewhere that ALL muzzle loading firearms should be proofed by a qualified individual. WE stress that all arms be proofed by a qualified or at least a knowledgeable individual, who can do it correctly .
I will discuss why I take this stand further on.
Mere opinions or experience??:
I am a licensed Gunsmith and have been in the retail gun business for over 12 years.
Of course, I have been in the gun collecting hobby considerably longer.
Our company sells Pedersoli and until recently, Euroarms products, as well as Palmetto Arms until their closing, and have also dealt with Armisport , Lyman, and IAB Unicom in the past. WE also market "Indian assembled" firearms, which we finish to our standards here at our shop in Canada by our trained staff. I believe I am somewhat qualified and have the necessary experience to comment on several important facts that will be presented as follows :
The term "Indian made Muskets":
There are numerous small family owned business' that produce both wall hanger REPLICA guns and fully functional REPRODUCTION firearms. There are also a select few large factories that produce the same in volume numbers.
One common misconception which I would like to dispel, is that all Indian guns come from one source. I hear this claimed a lot by supposed experts. This is totally wrong.
Even so, we once had a rather unscrupulous dealer, (name withheld), claiming that his guns came from the same factory as Loyalist Arms. He even had the audacity to tell his customer to contact us for a warranty issue on the musket he had sold.
Loyalist Arms deals exclusively with one factory in India for our Indian assembled guns. I use the term "Indian assembled" for a reason, which I will address later.
Just like North America and else where, there are decent products and poor ones being manufactured, not just guns, but automobiles, toaster ovens, etc. I think you know what I mean.
There are companies world wide that turn out junk for a fast buck, while others actually try to make a good product.
It disturbs me to hear all Indian made muskets being smeared with the same brush. This is not a fair assumption. One has to do their homework when purchasing any product, Indian made muskets included. Cheaper usually doesn't mean a better deal .
I could share several stories about customers, who bought a piece of junk musket or pistol elsewhere, and then asked us to get it operational. Of course I refused to work on most of these guns, knowing we would be legally liable, should an accident occur. BUYER BEWARE !!
This is one reason why we endorse proofing of ALL guns.
So, how do I check into what may have been made to fire or not??
Easy;
1. Ask the seller/dealer if they can provide proofing and loading data. Then check the loading data against similar models by other manufacturers. I find Dixie Gun Works catalogs very handy for this comparison. All of Dixies 3 band Enfields that are listed in their catalog have the load data published right there under the picture. Generally speaking, 60 grains of FFG is the standard regular recommended load with a ball. I'm just mentioning Enfields for instance but all muskets have similar info. in Dixies catalog.
2. Ask the dealer/seller if they will stand behind their product.
In other words, if it is properly proofed with the recommended load and ball and fails, will the dealer exchange the gun.
This is where a qualified person should do the proof test. A newbie, who doesn't know anything about proofing, can't be expected to do it correctly or safely. He could just as easily make a very nice pipe bomb and cause a lot of damage, not to mention injuries.
There should be at least one qualified person in every living history group or reenactment group, or historic site, who can properly do a proof test, (not to mention safety course/training of the members) . This should be an absolute requirement !! If there is no such person within the group, then a local gunsmith who is willing to document the test, can do the proofing. More on actual proofing later on...
Also, is there a warranty on this firearm? Ask for a copy of the warranty. Study it carefully. Does it really cover normal operation, (abuse and neglect by owner not withstanding)?
3. Is the gun fireable & proofable out of the box?
Some guns were never designed to actually handle a regular load, let alone a proof test. Some were made with breech plugs that were welded in for example, which is not safe. Some don't have a touch hole, which may or may not pass a proof, depending on the manufacturer.
4. Are replacement parts available?
How can a dealer offer any kind of warranty if they do not have access to replacement parts?
5. Can the dealer do the required repair work to their products or at least refer the purchaser to a head office or repair depot for warranty or regular repairs?
If the answer to some or all these questions is NO,....need I say more??
PROOFING:
Now here is a very disputed and rather confusing topic and I have no doubt, this subject will draw differing opinions. All I can offer is my knowledge of this subject as I have experienced and researched it over the last few years. I will not debate nor argue any statements here.
First off, no new musket, out of the box, has been proofed ! They may bear a proof mark, but that is all.
Commercially proofing a barrel to most government standards, subjects it to pressures and strains that are at the point of causing the barrel to fail. If the barrel does not distort or completely fail, it will still NEVER be used on a retail arm.
This sort of testing is done to just about all products in the manufacturing industry from ovens to computers. You test a couple and pass the rest.
After the proofing, the barrel is carefully examined and then thrown into the recycling bin. The most common practice, is to do a production run of X number of barrels and proof a select few of them, then assume the rest are the same in quality and materials. The remaining barrels from the production run are then stamped with the government proofing house stamp.
This is not a guarantee that any particular gun will not fail, however, the manufacturers do have control over the specs and materials used in their barrels. Proofing say 3 out of 75 barrels should be more than sufficient in most cases.
Unless your musket was hand assembled by a custom gun builder and he has somehow verified that it has been proofed , then it hasn't been done at all .
This brings me to another point:
Which countries have government proof houses? Not everyone does.
Italy has them as does England, to just name a couple.
Canada does not have a proof house.
I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that in the US, there are no set standards for proofing muzzling arms.
This is why we recommend all our customers get their muskets/pistols proofed, and why we supply the load & proof data to do this.
We could proof each and every barrel here, but it is simply our companies word that it was done. With no national proof house here, what "proof", (please forgive the pun), could we offer?
Of course, if you take into consideration the proofing method as described above, really, what is the use anyway??
The only safe and reliable answer is for the customer to have his musket/pistol proofed and documented at his end.
Government proofing can be expensive by the way.
To have a barrel proofed at St.Etiene, France for example, costs approx $150.00 Euro per barrel, ($214.15 US), from what I have been told by a source in France. Maybe someone can correct me on this exact figure if they have the documentation to back it up. $214.00 can pay for a lot of powder & ball in both Canada and the US.
What manufacturer is going to absorb that extra cost and not pass it along to the customer?
Would the average customer pay the extra bucks for this proofing plus the added cost of cleanup afterwards? I think not, if at all possible. Much less expensive to have it done locally.
This is another reason why we endorse documented proofing on ALL muskets and supply the related data for our customers.
Once a barrel has been documented as proofed by a gunsmith or qualified official of a reenactment group, if an accident does occur, the operator of said firearm will be more accountable to properly maintain their arm as well as take more care to load it properly. This should be a great relief to all historic sites and the insurance industry, not to mention the general public.
There was a recent incident, where a newbie loaded 3 full charges of 100 grains of FFFG down the barrel of his Enfield, after it refused to fire following the first two failed attempts. He kept on loading until his sergeant took the gun from him, then proceeded to load another 100 grains down the barrel and try again.... Guess what happened next? You got it!! Pipe bomb!!
This story was related to me by two close witnesses and a qualified gunsmith who examined the barrel after the event.
By the way, it just so happened that this particular musket had recently been proofed by a qualified gunsmith with 30 years experience behind him. Go figure!!
Obviously the barrel ruptured in spectacular fashion.
The barrel was subsequently examined for flaws by two experts, (who have both been used to give qualified testimony in several court cases involving previous firearm & hunting incidents), and none were found. Extreme and unusual internal stress was the verdict. Overloaded, the barrel had to give.
You can proof a barrel, but you can't force common sense on anyone. Apparently, there was a training issue involved in this situation, so it wasn't entirely the newbie's fault. Thank God no one was injured.
I spoke to one of the experts, who examined that particular gun and at that time, he told me something very interesting:
In all the 12+ cases, where he was asked to examine and give expert testimony on firearm incidents, (muzzle loading and cartridge arms included), in every case, the accident was deemed "HUMAN ERROR by the operator".
Have there been accidents involving other manufacturers firearms?
The answer is certainly YES !!
Several years ago in the US, a Pedersoli Brown Bess barrel ruptured from being improperly loaded. This incident however didn't get much public coverage; don't know why...
There have been instances of Euroarms, Armi Sport and Ardesa guns being badly damaged as well, but you seldom get the kind of wild response as you do as when an "Indian musket" is involved in an accident. This is rather curious.
Could it be that many folks simply assume human error with an Italian or Spanish made musket rather than an "Indian made" gun? I believe so.
If each and every musket was properly proofed by the owner, gunsmith, or related reenactment group safety consultant, there would be absolutely no doubt to the guns safety.
The only other reason for a mishap would then surely be human error, and no one wants to admit that we are not perfect and can make mistakes.
Case in point:
We recently had an individual load approx. 6 charges of powder into one of our "Indian" Brown Bess muskets at an event. A witness to the incident said the accident occurred due to it being a very humid day with plenty of misfires happening all over the field. Of course, the gun owner probably didn't realize he was experiencing any problem while doing volley firing. He saw the flash from the pan and lots of smoke all round him. In any case, the musket finally ignited with a horrific roar, which shocked everyone around him.
This musket barrel held firm with no damage at all. The same however, could not be said for the stock, which cracked from the enormous recoil.
Of course, the cry went up "Indian muskets are unsafe"!!, even though the barrel was undamaged. The owner tried to save face and have the musket sent to a government lab to try to prove of all things, that the wood was rotten in the stock, as thought the gun stock caused the musket to be overloaded.
Of course, no mention was made at that time about the 600+ grains that was dumped down the barrel.
The investigation only confirmed human error, but it was indeed, a very good test for one of our "Indian" Brown Bess barrels, which by the way, passed with flying colors.
I can say with some confidence, that any musket would likely crack it's stock too, under such tremendous stress.
WE actually have that musket in our possession. I have planned to place a picture of it on our website a couple years ago, but never got round to it. I want to show how overloading a musket can cause damage. Someday soon, everyone will get a look at it. The point being, the musket got a bad rap initially, even though it didn't blow up, simply because it was "Indian" assembled.
In the long run, this accident actually helped our "Indian" gun reputation. After all, withstanding that kind of load is rather note worthy.
Bottom Line: Proof ALL muzzle loading guns & make proper gun operation training mandatory.
I am not saying that none of the reenactment groups train their members proper drill, only that it may get overlooked in some cases.
Wouldn't it be nice to see members show up for a reenactment event and be able to flash a card at an official to prove they've been properly trained?
Why I use the term "Indian Assembled" instead of "Indian Made":
Loyalist Arms' "Indian assembled" muskets are assembled by our exclusive factory, but not finished. We do about 30% of the finish work here in our shop, including de-burring and polishing internal parts, timing the lock, case hardening, stamping, some engraving, proper nipple installation, and wood finishing. We do not simply take a musket from a big box and wrap it up in a small box and ship it off to you.
We have actually had our muskets completely disassembled and tuned & finished for safe and reliable operation. Our warranty backs this up.
And yes, we have proofed some over the last few years.
I doubt that any other dealer/supplier can claim they have done this much work to their arms, prior to selling them.
Personally, I do not know how any dealer can offer any sort of warranty, not knowing what they are selling, having never had the particular musket/pistol disassembled.
Am I merely trying to make a case for "Indian Muskets" ?
Not really. I am concerned with overall safety on the field, at the range, at the historic site and on the film set.
Again, MY stand is clearly on the side of proofing ALL Muzzle Loading arms and full manditory and verified, training for every member of any shooting group.
This will not eliminate all possible mishaps, but it will, I am absolutely sure, reduce them considerably.
It may also impress the insurance companies as well, and some of the insured shooting groups may just see a slight reduction in their rates.
This will also help reduce the muddied confusion and overstated opinions about "how could this happen?" and who is to blame, (if one feels absolutely compelled to point the finger).
I would like to offer any technical assistance I can, to help any group or organization, that is unsure of the type of proof or regular load they should use in proofing a particular musket.
I would rather offer this to the groups involved, rather than individuals, as this is rather time consuming for us in the office to answer a multitude of emails from thousands of individuals.
WE can also offer loading data again to our previous customers if they have misplaced their former load/proof data, which we had already supplied them.
Again, this email is not meant to argue or to wade into wild debate, nor to challange anyones' opinion.
This is simply a set of facts as I have come to learn them over the years.
The bottom line is that all shooting sport groups must take it upon themselves to make safety a top priority.
If there is a potential problem, talking about it doesn't help. Deal with it !!
This can for the most part be accomplished by at least, two very important methods:
1) Have a ceritified safety training course as part of your membership requirements for ALL groups.
It really isn't that difficult or costly.
2) Make certified proofing of All arms a requirement.
I hope this information is helpful. My intention is to clarify rather than to confuse.
If anyone has differing opinions, that's fine. I don't expect to satisfy everyone nor to condemn anyone, but what is stated here, is what it is.
Thank you for your indulgence and many thanks to everyone in the hobby.
It's folks like you, who keep us in business. Good Luck and God Bless you all.
Your servant,
Blair.
David Snellen
