Is Swiss powder "the best" for general BP shooting

[Loyalist Dave]

If you're plinking cans, cheap is fine.

If you're hunting, less expensive is fine as well. The deer don't know the difference.

LD

 

[lite2bolt]

Let's be accurate here. GOEX is a brand. GOEX, like Shell gasoline, has a couple different products. There's regular Goex and then there's the "premium" level Goex, Old Eynsford. If you test regular Goex against Old Eynsford, you'll find Old E is a better powder. Price isn't everything. When you care about the 10X ring, you won't find the cheap stuff anywhere in the winners list. If you're plinking cans, cheap is fine.

where do you obtain the Old Eyandsford?

 

[tenngun]

Let's be accurate here. GOEX is a brand. GOEX, like Shell gasoline, has a couple different products. There's regular Goex and then there's the "premium" level Goex, Old Eynsford. If you test regular Goex against Old Eynsford, you'll find Old E is a better powder. Price isn't everything. When you care about the 10X ring, you won't find the cheap stuff anywhere in the winners list. If you're plinking cans, cheap is fine.

I asked this earlier but don’t see an answer. Your a guy who seems to compleat for the smallest group. So,
If you best patch ball combo gives you best accuracy at 1600 fps( or 14 or 18 what have you) does the propellant make a difference.
To wit
Say your best is 70 grains 3f Swiss,a .490 ball, .018 patch lubed with moose milk. For 1500 fps.
Now you try GO and you get 1400 fps from this load. But a charge of 80 grains puts you at 1500. Or some Joe gives you a can of Hoffman’s home made and you need 95 grains to do the same does that open your groups?

 

[tenngun]

where do you obtain the Old Eyandsford?

I think Buffalo carries it, Swiss, Go, schutzen also

 

[user 31296]

Only Powder you can get here in Australia are Wano F grades and P grades which in a class up from the F It costs $110 a Kilo Swiss if you can find it costs $120 a kilo ,I use them all in my rifles but i do like Swiss as everyone will tell you it burns cleaner But they all shoot good groups if you do your part .Cheers

 

[dave951]

where do you obtain the Old Eyandsford?

Back Creek Gunshop Winchester VA

 

[dave951]

I asked this earlier but don’t see an answer. Your a guy who seems to compleat for the smallest group. So,
If you best patch ball combo gives you best accuracy at 1600 fps( or 14 or 18 what have you) does the propellant make a difference.
To wit
Say your best is 70 grains 3f Swiss,a .490 ball, .018 patch lubed with moose milk. For 1500 fps.
Now you try GO and you get 1400 fps from this load. But a charge of 80 grains puts you at 1500. Or some Joe gives you a can of Hoffman’s home made and you need 95 grains to do the same does that open your groups?

Being a competition shooter, yeah, group size is king. FPS, meh. What most black powder folks have little understanding of is Ballistic Coefficient. It's sort of a mathematical way of ranking how well a bullet retains velocity. Round ball is the starting point and it's pretty awful compared to conicals.

Our competition group specifies real black powder only and we're not alone in that. Some will allow subs. You have to know the rules of competition.

So bottom line, I'm not impressed over an extra 100-200fps at the muzzle. A round ball will shed that really fast. We shoot minies and those are quite sensitive to fouling. If the powder is "dirty", then it's a nonstarter. Doesn't matter what brand, we don't wipe between shots.

 

[tenngun]

Being a competition shooter, yeah, group size is king. FPS, meh. What most black powder folks have little understanding of is Ballistic Coefficient. It's sort of a mathematical way of ranking how well a bullet retains velocity. Round ball is the starting point and it's pretty awful compared to conicals.

Our competition group specifies real black powder only and we're not alone in that. Some will allow subs. You have to know the rules of competition.

So bottom line, I'm not impressed over an extra 100-200fps at the muzzle. A round ball will shed that really fast. We shoot minies and those are quite sensitive to fouling. If the powder is "dirty", then it's a nonstarter. Doesn't matter what brand, we don't wipe between shots.

I think you were missing the point I was making. You get your best group with a particular charge. Your patch ball combo, and your powder charge. All about consistently getting the same.
Obviously if your shooting at a hundred yards and you go up on your charge or down on your charge your going to hit high or low.
You also dial in your charge. 65 grains may make an x sized group. But 75 or 55, even 70 or 60 may increase the size of your group. So yes you need a particular velocity, a sweet spot where trajectory, and how well it matches to the rifeling all work together.
So I wasn’t asking about velocity in terms of power, but in terms of imitating the preformance of a different powder.
If your very smallest group comes from x charge of Swiss, can you not get the same sized group with a slightly larger charge of GO, or Shutzen that imitates a charge of Swiss

 

[Bassdog1]

Tenngun I see what you are asking and I will say that with most of my guns I can replicate accuracy using different powders. However I do own one gun that uses Swiss 3f and I have fired hundreds of rounds with other powder and patch combos and can not replicate the accuracy I get with Swiss. I am a Target shooter (not competitively) and hunter and this is the only gun I have ever experienced this with.

 

[dave951]

I think you were missing the point I was making. You get your best group with a particular charge. Your patch ball combo, and your powder charge. All about consistently getting the same.
Obviously if your shooting at a hundred yards and you go up on your charge or down on your charge your going to hit high or low.
You also dial in your charge. 65 grains may make an x sized group. But 75 or 55, even 70 or 60 may increase the size of your group. So yes you need a particular velocity, a sweet spot where trajectory, and how well it matches to the rifeling all work together.
So I wasn’t asking about velocity in terms of power, but in terms of imitating the preformance of a different powder.
If your very smallest group comes from x charge of Swiss, can you not get the same sized group with a slightly larger charge of GO, or Shutzen that imitates a charge of Swiss

Sorry, but it simply doesn't work that way. You can't sub one powder for another, alter the charge level to get the same result. We also don't go up or down on the charge level to make the elevation change. We get the tightest group possible, then alter the sights by raising the rear or filing the front to put the group where it needs to be.

Different powders leave different levels and "types" of fouling. Minies are quite sensitive to this. Couple that with the fact that we don't wipe between shots and the load becomes critical to accuracy. Swiss and Old E are quite popular in our org but there are also many who shoot regular Goex or Schuetzen. Accuracy is found through experiment and although Swiss is great, in some guns, not so much.

 

[tenngun]

Yes we all get our optimal group then regulate the sights.
Your shooting minies?
Whole nother ball game for me. But could you not swab between shots, or is your shooting timed, or some other reason that’s against the rules.

 

[lite2bolt]

Yes we all get our optimal group then regulate the sights.
Your shooting minies?
Whole nother ball game for me. But could you not swab between shots, or is your shooting timed, or some other reason that’s against the rules.

Dave951 and i shoot N-SSA (north-south skirmish assoc.) it is a team/rapid fire event. There is a 5 min. time limit. but most are done in 2 to 3 min. so there is no time to walk back and wipe the bore. There are penalties for leaving the line prior to the team being cleared to leave .

 

[dave951]

Yes we all get our optimal group then regulate the sights.
Your shooting minies?
Whole nother ball game for me. But could you not swab between shots, or is your shooting timed, or some other reason that’s against the rules.

When a minie rifle is set up properly and the ammo set up as Minie designed, you can shoot till you run out of ammo, shoulder or daylight without wiping or loss of accuracy. I've personally run 60+ shots straight without wiping just to prove the point to a round ball diehard.

Yes, N-SSA competition is timed and balances speed and accuracy. Wiping is not against the rules, but if you want to have so much as a hint of a prayer, you'll learn to setup the Minie system as designed and you'll learn to load and shoot accurately at speed. A serious N-SSA competitor will take great pains that the load is accurate, repeatable, and quick to load.

 

[lite2bolt]

Back Creek Gunshop Winchester VA

Thanks will try to pick some up at nationals

 

[dave951]

Just for reference, a top N-SSA team of 8 shooters will clear 32 clay pigeons offhand at 50yd in about 80-90 seconds. No time to wipe. The squad will fire at most 34 shots in that time.

 

[tenngun]

When a minie rifle is set up properly and the ammo set up as Minie designed, you can shoot till you run out of ammo, shoulder or daylight without wiping or loss of accuracy. I've personally run 60+ shots straight without wiping just to prove the point to a round ball diehard.

Yes, N-SSA competition is timed and balances speed and accuracy. Wiping is not against the rules, but if you want to have so much as a hint of a prayer, you'll learn to setup the Minie system as designed and you'll learn to load and shoot accurately at speed. A serious N-SSA competitor will take great pains that the load is accurate, repeatable, and quick to load.

I see.

 

[hanshi]

Never been a competition shooter and the cheapest BP does everything I'll ever need doing with a muzzleloader. Plus "cheap" powder keeps me shooting. In fact, no better than I can shoot blue matchheads would work just fine for me.

 

[smoothshooter]

It really depends on what type of shooting you're doing. If it's competition, Swiss or Old Eynsford. Just plinking, Goex or Schuetzen. Old Eysnford is a Goex product.

I believe Graff’s is Goex also.