Is This A Rifle--Or A Smooth Bore?

[Wehrmacht]

If you have a copy of Neumann's "Battle Weapons of the American Revolution",take a look on page 224 at the Southern Rifle with the grease hole in the stock. I have this piece in 60cal made from measurements taken from the original (now on exhibit at the Valley Forge Museum) EXCEPT what I have is not rifled. Or at least not spiral or twist rifled. The furrows in my piece run STRAIGHT down the bore from the muzzle to the breech plug. So....the first question is: is it considered a rifle? Or a smooth bore? I'm guessing a smooth bore, but I want professional opinions!

Next question: With a 39.25 inch barrel in .60cal,where should I start in working up a load using #6 or #7.5 shot? Is this straight rifling going to have an adverse effect on patterning? I have 20ga loading materials on hand,and these will work fine...I think 20ga is 62cal or close. Thoughts and suggestions will be very much appreciated....I'm a flintlock rifle nut,and really know very little about smooth bore shot loads :winking:.

Ray Rapine is sending me a .59cal round ball mould. If you are experienced in round balls out of straight lands & furrows I'd like to hear your comments on this also.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If it has grooves in the barrel, straight or twist, it is rifled. You can now buy modern shotgun barrels with " Straight grooves", that are advertised as locking the wad in place to give improved patterns. With a round ball, the straight grooves will not impart spin to the ball as it travels through the air, so accuracy will be the same as shooting RB out of any other smoothbore. Your gun is a straighted grooved smoothbore, as technically, a rifle has grooves cut in a spiral, or " twist " in the barrel. Just shows that efforts to improve the accuracy of both shot and round ball loads have been going on for centuries.

 

[Rebel]

Smoothbores are more finicky than rifles. You might start with a load of 60 grs Goex 3f and the same amount of shot and then add more shot until you get the best pattern. Try an overpowder wad, 1/2 a lubed fiber cushion wad, the shot then a thin overshot card wad. Then try it with just 3 overshot cards, with a dollp of lube in between them, the shot, and an other overshot card. Just keep trying diiferent combos of power, shot and wads until you find what works best in your gun. It should shott rd balls well too. I use 80 grs Goex 3f, an overpowder wad, half a lubed cushion wad, and then the patched .600 rd ball. Good luck and have fun.

 

[paulvallandigham]

WADR to Rebel,I have to suggest going the other way. 60 grains is about 2 1/4 drams of powder. If you read V.M. Starr's article in Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook,[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]

You will find that less is more. Adding more shot to the shot charge simply slows the speed of the charge down, but adds extra recoil, , and damages the shot on the bottom of the shot load, ruining your pattern capabilities. If you try Rebel's load, and it doesn't shoot well for you, try reducing the load to 55 grain( 2 drams) and see if the pattern improves, instead. 60 grains of powder throws about 7/8 oz. of shot. 50 grains will throw 3/4 oz. of shot. The Starr article suggests not going over 3/4 oz for best patterns.

Remember, you are not trying to create a gun that has a full choke, and then can take game out to 40 yds and beyond. In a cylinder bore gun, your range is limited to 25-30 yds. The shot patterns are going to be smaller at that range, and hence have more pellets in the pattern, all other things being equal. The size of the pellet you choose for the birds you want to hunt will determine how effective the load is at killing. But it is multiple pellet hits that kill by shock, rather than that rare case when one pellet hits a bird in the head, that is going to bring home the game. Extra velocity does not increase penetration, but simply blows out the patterns, putting few pellets on your target. All that extra velocity is lost in the first 20 yds. Keep your loads mild, and know the range limitations of the gun. You will kill many more birds that way with any BP shotgun.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I've always heard and read that these were called "smooth rifles". As for stabilizing the ball, I doubt it. I've read that some believed that it made it easier to load more shots between cleaning as the residue would collect in the grooves. But if you think about it, the residue is collecting on the lands as well. I suppose it would be easier to ram a ball home over dirt that only partially touches it than pushing it past dirt that touches it all the way around.

The way I look at it, if you rifle a barrel and it doesn't have any twist at all, you've wasted your time and effort.

 

[TN.Frank]

I too read in "Treasury of the Gun" that groves were first cut into barrels in order to collect fouling so they'd be able to shoot more shots between cleaning the barrel. Someone came up with the idea that if they sprialed em' in the barrel they'd be longer and hold more fouling and low and behold, they also put a spin on the ball and made the gun more accurate. Funny how things like that happen,LOL. :hmm:

 

[CrackStock]

Isn't a smooth rifle a guns that has rifle styling, but a smooth bore?

Straight rifling is when there is no twist to the rifling.

CS

 

[Geoff Jones]

Wow! There seem to be several folks intrigued with this particular weapon. I remember buying a set of plans of this rifle in 1979 or 1980 from Log cabin Shop. I've always liked it....don't know why. I finally built a reasonably faithful reproduction in 2000 or so and sold it to a gentleman in TX. I know it's not your weapon because I used a octagon swamped 58 cal rifled barrel. Other than the barrel....it matched the original.

Just a few years ago I saw a reproduction on the Track sight...this gentleman had had the barrel custom made with the first foot or so square..as per the original. Is this the weapon you have??? It was a very faithful copy...EVERYTHING was correct...even the funky front sight mounting. I don't remember the specifics regarding the barrel but maybe track just didn't mention the straight rifling. It was very correct. My subscription to the archives is currently expired ...or I'd check!
Geoff Jones
Amherst, NH

 

[TANSTAAFL]

I too read in "Treasury of the Gun" that groves were first cut into barrels in order to collect fouling so they'd be able to shoot more shots between cleaning the barrel. Someone came up with the idea that if they sprialed em' in the barrel they'd be longer and hold more fouling and low and behold, they also put a spin on the ball and made the gun more accurate. Funny how things like that happen,LOL. :hmm:

I have read some cross bows of medieval Europe utilized a follower for shooting lead balls in twist rifled barrels . (smoothbore slurbows were first used by the Chinese) So accuracy advantage of twist rifling was likely known even before it came to be used in firearms.

 

[Wehrmacht]

Schimmelsmith,

My piece was made about three years ago by David Dodds,Selinsgrove,Pennsylvania. Dave and I are very good friends,and I have five different pieces that he has made for me, and he's presently making a new England Fowler,the one ID'd as NE20 on page 52 of Grinslade's new classic on Flintlock Fowlers.

Dave made this piece becaused he,too was intreagued by the original. He has the same full scale plans that you speak of, coming from The Log Cabin Shop back in the late 1970's.( No longer available). At the time he made this piece Dave was full time employed at Getz Barrels. That was back before Donnie turned it over to his son, John. Dave made the barrel one week-end after regular hours,and it is square for the first nine inches as is the original. And,the front sight is inlet from the front of the barrel and not dove tailed in in the usual manner.

Dave told me that he knew of only three of these straight rifles being made, and my piece never left his shop.He simply had it stuck back in the corner of his basement work area where I saw it this past June. It was so unusual that he didn't think anyone would have any interest in it!

It's very probable that the original at the Valley Forge Museum was pieced togather from parts of two or more earlier pieces. And it was most probably out of one of the Southern Colonies,maybe Virginia or possibly South Carolina.( Based on the grease hole :winking: ). It had to have been restocked,and the barrel is probably from one of the Dutch square breeched muskets which came into the Colonies around 1741 or so. The trigger guard and side plate are also Dutch musket, but the original's lock is English.

This piece has grown on me,though I have yet to shoot it. Ray Rapine promices me a mould for .59cal round balls by late next week, but I plan to go ahead right away and see what it will do with shot. When you pick it up and hold it, it just feels like a serious, no non-sense work horse!

 

[Geoff Jones]

Der Forster,

First of all....if you would like a copy of the Log cabin plans, I'll reproduce them and get them to you. i do think I've drawn all over them and made various notes....but what the heck....they're apparently no longer available.

The reproduction of your rifle / smoothbore on Track that I spoke of was done very nicely be Don Pitsch..AAA-540 if you have access to the archives. He did a GREAT job, but chose, for some reason to add a buttplate. Other than that ....it's a great reproduction. He even went to great lengths to reproduce the original pine tar finish.

If I remember correctly, someone recently, while commenting on this weapon, attributed it MUCH later and questioned Neumann's dating. I think it may have been on the ALR forum.

I don't care, I love it and will probably have a custom barrel made with the square breech and reproduce the hardware sometime in the future and build another. A very unique and intriguing weapon.

BTW, NE 20 in"fowlers" is a great Fowler...is he doing the 56" barrel???

Geoff Jones
Amherst, NH

 

[Wehrmacht]

YES, I very much would like to have a copy of the plans that you have. If you will give me contact instructions I would like to send you the cost of reproduction and postage. I assume that we can handle this through the direct topic function on the Forum?

Also, Ed Rayle saw this piece at the CLA last month,and he can make the barrel.

 

[Geoff Jones]

Rich,

If you're comfortable with doing this...drop me your personal e-mail at [email protected]

I'll send you digital photo's of the plans and then sometime in the near future get them reproduced and send you a hard copy....

i've built a fowler with Ed's barrel for a client..thanks for the lead... I'll ask him to reproduce the beast!

I think I can also send you photo's of the Don pitsch rifle as well...
Geoff

 

[Richard Hare.]

These straight -rifled fowling pieces were quite popular in the last half of the 18th century, so it seems.
Believe W.Kieth Neal had one, A Griffin I think, otherwise it may have been a Twigg.
He said (in 'Great British Gunmakers, 1740 - 1790')
That they had a brief period of popularity, but as the barrel had to be made heavier, the popularity didn't last.
He also said that they would shoot a very good shot pattern,
BUT the shot size used had to correspond to the grooves in the barrel.(most important)
So, It would appear that putting a card in the muzzle, and try different shot sizes, and see what size lies in there nice and level, with the shot filling the grooves.
This is all what I've read, and have no practical experience with a straight-rifled gun.

While writing this, it comes to mind that George Shumway, in his book "Jaeger Rifles" mentions boar-hunting guns, often having straight-rifled barrels too.
This May be to help load repeated shots W.O. cleaning, as mentioned by quite a few on this thread.
Most interesting Gun!!!

 

[Tumblernotch]

Now that you mention it, I've also heard that to be the case as well. I don't know which is the true definition of a "smooth rifle", perhaps both are.
:hmm:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

The furrows in my piece run STRAIGHT down the bore from the muzzle to the breech plug. So....the first question is: is it considered a rifle? Or a smooth bore? I'm guessing a smooth bore, but I want professional opinions!

I'm not a professional but it seems to me that the answer to this is very simple: The barrel is grooved so, whether the grooves are straight or twisted, it is a rifle. Smoothbore by definition means that the barrel is smooth or ungrooved. Smoothrifle is a rifle style gun with a smooth bore.

 

[Lone Carabiner]

The American Indians knew 100's of years before they ever saw a firearm that arrows with fletching arranged in a 'spiral' sort of placement imparted a slight spin on the arrows and gave better accuracy, and also gave a little better range.
If they had the archery equipment that is available today and knew what was going to happen to them the Europeans might not have been able to establish settlements in the New World.

 

[Okwaho]

The furrows in my piece run STRAIGHT down the bore from the muzzle to the breech plug. So....the first question is: is it considered a rifle? Or a smooth bore? I'm guessing a smooth bore, but I want professional opinions!

I'm not a professional but it seems to me that the answer to this is very simple: The barrel is grooved so, whether the grooves are straight or twisted, it is a rifle. Smoothbore by definition means that the barrel is smooth or ungrooved. Smoothrifle is a rifle style gun with a smooth bore.

Va.Manuf. you are correct here. The presence of rifling in a barrel whether straight or spiraled makes for a rifled barrel.I don't have a lot of information on very early {15th and 16th century} German guns but there seems to be some thought that straight grooved barrels originated in the late 15th century or the early 16th century in Germany and that spiraled rifling dates to the early 16th century in the same area.Henry J. Kaufman,"The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle",CH.1 PP 1-8, The purpose of grooved {straight rifled} barrels remains murky but whatever the purpose straight rifled barrels are found as late as the 18th and 19th centuries in America. George Shumway in ,"Rifles of Colonial America" Vol. II PP.illustrates a rifle signed J.P.Beck{1751-1811} with straight rifling.A friend who has handled a great many Kentuckies over the last half century told me that he had seen several guns with straight rifling and owned one signed by "J Hillegas" a late Pennsylvania maker{Kaufman Plate 213,P.265
Tom Patton

 

[Stumpkiller]

If they had the archery equipment that is available today and knew what was going to happen to them the Europeans might not have been able to establish settlements in the New World.

I don't believe it. They had better equipment than what is available today. It could be repaired/replaced in the field with materials on hand and was more reliable, and they were mostly limited by the style of draw - pinching the knock instead of laying fingers over the string with a tab. Good enough when you're good enough to get within 30 yards of your target.

If they had a smallpox vaccine, however, things would have been different.

PS - the bow has been arouund about 10,000 years and it was the probably the Egyptians who first spiraled the feathers.

 

[Mike Brooks]

That they had a brief period of popularity, but as the barrel had to be made heavier, the popularity didn't last.

I used to own untill rescently a Durrs Egg 14 bore fowler with straight groove rifleing. The barel was as light as any other fowler barrel, in fact it was so thin it had rusted thru in a small area 3" behing the muzzle. These straight grooved fowlers have rifling that isn't very deep. My 14 bore had 17 grooves! I never measured the groove depth, but I'm guessing .005 or less. I would assume that particular gun was set up to shoot fairly small shot with the size of the grooves. In fact i've seen several old straight grooved fowlers and they all had similar rifling as my 14 bore.
getz is making straight grooved barrels, but with standard depth round bottom rifleing. In one of Getz straight rifled 20 bore barrels i'd use an 18 bore card and wad so you can fill the riflings. I'll go out on a limb and say it will probably shoot larger shot quite well. Use what ever shot fits well in the groove size, probably 4's or larger.