I thought I would post a few pictures of an original J&S Hawken rifle I had 40+ years ago. I was in high school and sold it then to buy a GTO and have been kicking myself since. If anyone ever have seen this rifle I would love to buy it back!
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J&S Hawken rifle
- Thread starter lexington1
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Holy smoke! An original J&S Hawken! It's even marked on the lock! Wow!
Do you remember any of the details... Caliber, dimensions, that sort of thing? Do you have any additional photographs?
I'm seeing an early type snail at the breech, with what appears to be a solid patent breech (not hooked). You see these a lot on the Hawken fullstocks, but I believe this rifle was an original half-stock, based on the placement of the barrel keys and the presence of barrel key escutcheons and the beaver tail cheek piece. Some fullstocks had this type of cheekpiece, but a lot of them had the straight "Tennessee" type cheek rest. Relatively few fullstocks had barrel key escutcheons or inlays. At least some of the original fullstocks were cut back or "half-stocked" after they had been in use for a while, but I believe yours is an original J&S halfstock. The buttplate looks like one of the early forged and brazed ones, but I'm wondering if the trigger guard may be a replacement, not so much because of the absence of the typical Hawken-style scroll as its general crudity in appearance. The Hawken brothers were known for very high quality workmanship and attention to detail.
That rifle is way beyond cool!
Don't kick yourself too hard. We become different people as we age, and it is easier to look back than to look forward. Young people have a hard time understanding what lies ahead of them, and the make decisions based on their own priorities.
This Hawken rifle is surely out there somewhere. Maybe this post will jog some memories or create a few ripples, and brig this remarkable old rifle back out into the light. Thank you for showing it!
Notchy Bob
Do you remember any of the details... Caliber, dimensions, that sort of thing? Do you have any additional photographs?
I'm seeing an early type snail at the breech, with what appears to be a solid patent breech (not hooked). You see these a lot on the Hawken fullstocks, but I believe this rifle was an original half-stock, based on the placement of the barrel keys and the presence of barrel key escutcheons and the beaver tail cheek piece. Some fullstocks had this type of cheekpiece, but a lot of them had the straight "Tennessee" type cheek rest. Relatively few fullstocks had barrel key escutcheons or inlays. At least some of the original fullstocks were cut back or "half-stocked" after they had been in use for a while, but I believe yours is an original J&S halfstock. The buttplate looks like one of the early forged and brazed ones, but I'm wondering if the trigger guard may be a replacement, not so much because of the absence of the typical Hawken-style scroll as its general crudity in appearance. The Hawken brothers were known for very high quality workmanship and attention to detail.
That rifle is way beyond cool!
Don't kick yourself too hard. We become different people as we age, and it is easier to look back than to look forward. Young people have a hard time understanding what lies ahead of them, and the make decisions based on their own priorities.
This Hawken rifle is surely out there somewhere. Maybe this post will jog some memories or create a few ripples, and brig this remarkable old rifle back out into the light. Thank you for showing it!
Notchy Bob
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That is a double handful of history! The only question is, do you still have the GTO?
You are right about the trigger guard. It was fabricated out of strips of steel when the original was broken off and lost, probably the same time that the stock was broken. Underneath the rawhide wrist wrap the stock was repaired with strips of steel and nailed on, but it was still pretty wobbly without the rawhide. It is marked J&S Hawken St. Louis on the barrel. It was approx. 52 caliber. Someone had tried to cut the barrel off at some point just above the middle pipe. It looks like they tried using a file, but gave up. This one for sure had always been a half stock. The buttplate indeed was one of the brazed ones.
I think I have a few more pics of it. I wish I had better pictures, but I was only 17 when I had this and I only had a pos 110 instamatic camera. Even then I really liked this gun, but I really had to have a 66 GTO that was for sale. We were pretty poor growing up and this Hawken gave me the opportunity to have cool car. Now I regret that decision, but I don't lose any sleep over it. Still, if it ever appears I would make a very serious effort to buy it.
No, the GTO didn't last too long. Carter became president and we suffered from an oil crisis. I was afraid we were going to run out of gas. My dad pressured me to buy some piece of junk Datsun car, so the GTO was sold off.
Thank you for the additional information!
That looks like about a 38" barrel, so it would not be surprising that someone in the dim past would have wanted to shorten it. I don't know when hacksaws were invented or became generally accessible, but I do know that files were readily available and much in demand from the frontier traders. I believe files were generally used by native people for cutting gunbarrels by filing a circumferential groove deeper and deeper, until it finally cut through. Probably not a difficult task with a smoothbored trade musket, but Hawkens were known for heavy, thick-walled barrels. It isn't surprising that he gave up, or was interrupted before he finished. Who knows? Maybe a native man acquired this Hawken from some hapless white hunter, then ended up getting himself killed in battle before finishing the cutting job, and the damaged Hawken was a battlefield pick-up. I guess we can only speculate.
The rifle shown below was probably a mid-20th century build that was up for sale on an online site a couple of years ago. It had a marked Bill Large JJJJ barrel and appeared to have a Bob Roller lock and triggers. For the asking price, it would have been worth it for the barrel alone, but I dithered around and missed out:
Note that the wrist and triggerguard were broken, just as you described for your rifle. In this case, the broken scroll guard was not repaired or replaced. The glue-up and steel bar wrist repair was crude, but effective, I guess. The John Brown J&S Hawken fullstock in Utah has a similar reinforced wrist repair, so it must have been a standard procedure.
I'm curious... Did your rifle have the long-bar trigger plate, or a short one? The long bar, coupled with a long tang, would have provided some extra reinforcement, although I suppose there are some limits, depending on how hard a knock the rifle gets.
Anyway, the various features and damaged areas, and maybe especially the cut-mark on the barrel, will help identify your old rifle if it surfaces again. Here is an article about a historically significant Hawken that was positively identified through photo documentation of damage it had sustained in the past: The Carson-Beale Hawken
Once again, thank you for presenting this rifle for our enjoyment! Merry Christmas to you, and all who are reading!
Notchy Bob
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Sad, but common in those days.
William Sublette
45 Cal.
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Someone had brought it into a sporting goods store in southern Colorado and swapped towards something in the store. This was probably about 1978. I was really into muzzle loaders (and still am) and I thought it was pretty cool that it was a real Hawken. I knew very little about them then, but I knew I wanted it. I was in 10th grade and I had a couple modern guns that I traded towards it and some money. About a year later I wanted to buy my first car. I found out about a 66 GTO that was for sale for $800. Sounds rediculous now, but that was a lot of money for me then. I was in high school so of coarse just had to have a car, especially a muscle car, so I sold it to a dealer in Sante Fe. I cannot remember the guys name, but apparently he's been gone for some time as I've made inquiries and nobody seems to remember who he was.
I don't remember if it had the long or short bar triggers.
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I dont know if I feel
Worse for your
Loss of the
Hawken or the
Goat
I wish you could get
Both of them back
Jim in La Luz
Worse for your
Loss of the
Hawken or the
Goat
I wish you could get
Both of them back
Jim in La Luz
Lol, thanks for that! I'm not worried at all about the Goat. Through the years I've had several and still have a 70 sitting in the car port.I dont know if I feel
Worse for your
Loss of the
Hawken or the
Goat
I wish you could get
Both of them back
Jim in La Luz
My first new car was a '65 GTO, navy blue with a special order black leather interior. wish I still had it also and my Parker G grade 12 gauge.
Nice color combo. My first 66 GTO was black with a white top and an aqua interior color. I liked the black, but the rest of it clashed something fierce. I liked the tri-power set up on it.
stephenprops1
45 Cal.
Well, I have always loved the '66 and '67 GTO. At the time I would have sold a gun to have acquired either one of the GTO's.
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Good for you!
I drove
But lost out on a
67 in
Montreux Blue
Now find that
Hawken!
Jim in La Luz
ohio ramrod
75 Cal.
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While not a fan of the goats. I had three 56 fords and wish I still had them. Mine went by the wayside while I was in college and had no place to keep them when i moved into an apartment with the new wife. (I still have wife 50 plus tears latter)
