Jim & Barbie Chambers Where Are You?

[MAC1967]

I am not trying to open a can of worms or knock our organizational leadership in any way, but I want to say that I read the sign at Friendship on Commercial Row where I expected to see Jim & Barbie Chambers at one of my favorite booths for the national shoot, but they were not there. They have decided not to attend Friendship anymore due to some regulations that I don't think are necessary or well thought out by a fire inspector and perhaps were accepted by the NMLRA. I know it wasn't an easy decision, but I really miss seeing the Chambers' booth, and I hope they come back to the national shoots. They are a major anchor in commercial row. (I heard L&R locks may not return - don't know if that is true.) Whoever put the screws to them wasn't thinking outside the box very clearly for a short-term event that Chambers' Flintlocks had been at for decades with no safety or building code issues. (Sorry I don't remember exactly what the message posted by Jim & Barbie said.) This is not good for the NMLRA event or for those of us who eagerly go to shop there and support our hobby.

 

[CuNosecap]

This is exactly what I heard talking to Jim’s wife this week. They were there but left and don’t plan to return based on same reasons you mentioned. I will stop commenting as third hand info is not fair to either side.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The NMLRA sent out a form that releases the NMLRA from any and all liability for any and all happenings inside or outside of the renters booth. That means if that delapitaded assortment of junk falls down, the booth renters are liable and get sued by anyone who is killed or maimed.
I used to rent a booth down there for many years, but no way would I do it now.
The NMLRA has been taken over by a litigious bunch of ninnys that do nothing but cover their asses
You all do realize they hired a full-time director again? I don't know what he's paid but the last one made over 100K. This bunch doesn't have a pot to piss in but has plenty money to pay lawyers and executives. What a joke.

 

[Don Steele]

I'm disappointed, to say the least. What follows is flowing from my mind, without much forethought and worth what you paid for it.
I attended Friendship regularly ( both shoots) for several years since becoming a member of the NMLRA. I drive up from Florida, camping in my Coleman tent and enjoying the experience of "taking a couple of steps back" to simpler times. I haven't been able to attend for the last couple of years and I miss it. One of the things I miss the most has been visiting with Jim and Barbie and my friend Tip Curtis. As most of you know, Tip has passed, God rest his soul. If Jim and Barbie aren't attending any longer and given the general loss of participants in the vendor area compared to past years, I'm running out of incentives. I don't shoot well enough any more to even think about being "competitive" so what little shooting I've done has been simply for the fun of it and frankly.....paying the $50.00 registration fee for a few re-entry targets just became silly. The last two times I was at Friendship, I didn't fire a shot. I drove up, camped for a few days, just walking around the grounds, chatting with shooters and spending most of my time time in the "Sheep Sheds". I always make a side trip to visit the cemetery in Cincinnati where my Father and all the Steele family are interred then break camp and drive back to Florida.
As I read back over what I just wrote I believe the sentiment I'm expressing might be best taken as an admonition to the NMLRA board and administration to seriously consider steps to re-invigorate the vendor participation at our 2 big shoots on the grounds at Friendship. That's pretty much the main reason I go there. Not to shoot. I'm a member of a vibrant Gun Club in Palm Bay, FL with 4,000 members and a dedicated Blackpowder range to enjoy. I shoot there 2-3 times a week just for the fun of it. If the vendor experience in Friendship continues to diminish I'm not only running out of reasons to travel to Friendship, I'm running out of reasons to remain a member ( and certified Range Officer, btw) in the NMLRA.

 

[Henry Miles]

You can write all the release forms you want, but property rented to multiple individuals and all liabilities resulting from structure condition is the responsibility of the owner (landlord). If the property doesn't meet applicable fire/building codes, they are responsible to upgrade or close the property. As a temporary occupant, you are not liable for issues beyond your control. The owner is fully liable for safety related to the property. The owner is probably not able to get liability insurance on the structure and is attempting to pass it on to the renters.

 

[rich pierce]

They should contact the range officer. Somebody shot themselves in the foot.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

They should contact the range officer. Somebody shot themselves in the foot.

I've been going there since 1980. They excel at this sort of thing, but unfortunately little else. Politics has always been their main stumbling block. As my buddy Wayne says. "Too many damned yankees running that place". Being a damned yankee myself, I have to agree.

 

[AlexB]

Cowards be cowering same as they always have.
They need to be mocked,shamed and bullied.......lets bring that back to schools.

 

[andy52]

This kinda' of puts my head at a crossroads, on one hand, you have a grassroots business that really doesn't have to deal with politics of it due to its success.
Then you have a national organization that has to deal with all the BS in its country.
This kind of organization has to decide which way it wants to go with BS or it will run into a stone wall.

 

[Robin Henderson]

Their statement stapled to their shut-up booth. I hate to see this but say that I don't blame them. I believe other vendors are likely to follow suit.
It makes me wonder with the dropping membership just when will the point of no return be reached when the NMLRA will not be able to financially support itself.
I hate to be a negative Ned but like a friend up there once told me....It's like watching your old dog die.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

You can write all the release forms you want, but property rented to multiple individuals and all liabilities resulting from structure condition is the responsibility of the owner (landlord). If the property doesn't meet applicable fire/building codes, they are responsible to upgrade or close the property. As a temporary occupant, you are not liable for issues beyond your control. The owner is fully liable for safety related to the property. The owner is probably not able to get liability insurance on the structure and is attempting to pass it on to the renters.

Correct you are, it's the landlords responsibility. If a person is injured and then go for medical treatment the doctor or hospital will ask how it happened. While your insurance will cover cost, you can figure they will contact the grounds insurance carrier to cover cost. All the forms and releases are paper tigers unless their is law to back it up.

 

[NorthFork]

Their statement stapled to their shut-up booth. I hate to see this but say that I don't blame them. I believe other vendors are likely to follow suit.
It makes me wonder with the dropping membership just when will the point of be reach where the NMLRA will not be able to financially support itself.
I hate to be a negative Ned but like a friend up there once told me....It's like watching your old dog die.


View attachment 229164

Thank you very much for posting this.

 

[NorthFork]

So does anyone have a copy of the changes made to the NMLRA rental agreement and rules? I would like to see them.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

So does anyone have a copy of the changes made to the NMLRA rental agreement and rules? I would like to see them.

Call them up and have them email you a copy.

 

[BackDraft]

Here is a posting from the Black Powder Culture Facebook group from several days ago.

 

[Tumbledown]

The NMLRA sent out a form that releases the NMLRA from any and all liability for any and all happenings inside or outside of the renters booth. That means if that delapitaded assortment of junk falls down, the booth renters are liable and get sued by anyone who is killed or maimed.
I used to rent a booth down there for many years, but no way would I do it now.
The NMLRA has been taken over by a litigious bunch of ninnys that do nothing but cover their asses
You all do realize they hired a full-time director again? I don't know what he's paid but the last one made over 100K. This bunch doesn't have a pot to piss in but has plenty money to pay lawyers and executives. What a joke.

A "release from liability" does not absolve anyone from negligence. If NMLRA actions or property causes injury or damage and the NMLRA was aware of the potential for it ahead of time, they can still be held liable.

 

[CuNosecap]

I understand the concept that a release does not absolve a landlord from responsibilities . But you also must factor in that a small, family run business, cannot afford, much less stomach the cost of a lawyer to unravel any bad events. Why would anyone risk a lawsuit defense, even if it goes no where, it can be very expensive and unsettling.

 

[Don Steele]

I understand the concept that a release does not absolve a landlord from responsibilities . But you also must factor in that a small, family run business, cannot afford, much less stomach the cost of a lawyer to unravel any bad events. Why would anyone risk a lawsuit defense, even if it goes no where, it can be very expensive and unsettling.

I'm following this issue closely, as I hope most of us are who are NMLRA members and have enjoyed the "Friendship experience" regardless of our ability to shoot, are doing.
I believe this post (above) accurately sums up a big part of the issue for our vendor community. Thank you CuNosecap.
I learned this lesson from a dear friend many years ago. We were discussing a situation that had the potential to include confiscation by law enforcement of an entire firearm collection from an individual we knew. My extremely naive' thought ( I was young and dumb) went something like: "Well, we know he can prove that he's innocent of the charge involved and they will have to give them back." My friend quickly schooled me on REAL LIFE. "Sure...he'll get them back....AFTER spending thousands of dollars on lawyers, and God only knows what condition those fine collectible guns will be in by that time." Oh... School's out pilgrim.
I want to especially thank Backdraft for posting Barbie's comment ( above). While it somewhat mitigates my angst regarding the NMLRA and how they have chosen to behave, I still have to evaluate my membership, going forward. Simply put, with no bad feelings against the Association per se a decision to stop attending the shoots at Friendship and terminate membership is "collateral damage" , or unintended consequences of the Board's action. As I mentioned in my earlier post..a robust vendor community is one of the main reasons I have made the trip to Friendship in the past. For me, it's about a $1000.00 expense, coming from Florida. Not sure how much longer that will make sense ( if it ever did..!!) if the vendor participation continues to shrink. Barbie summed it up pretty well..."Stuck between a rock and a hard place"...Indeed we are.

 

[BS2366]

As a new member and going to the Friendship shoot for the first time this year, this is all a bit disappointing. I'm relatively young, 42, compared to most on here and other NMLRA members. I heard several vendors say there was a record number of people attending the spring shoot. It's troubling that there are people wanting to get into muzzleloading as a hobby and attend the shoot, but the NMLRA is forced to make changes due to insurance companies. Makes it hard to spread the sport, pass on knowledge, shop for parts, and spend time with others. Maybe the NMLRA needs to shop for new insurance.

 

[dave951]

Guys, the issues with insurance companies is quite real. We've had our fun with them in the N-SSA. To get coverage, regulations are getting tighter and often to those of us with long experience, somewhat onerous. But this is the legal climate we live in. For example, CCI used to make the very best musket caps, hands down. Then an idiot reenactor with a drilled out nipple and too much powder got a cap fragment in the eye and sued CCI. Presto, no more good caps. CCI reduced the power in the musket caps to the point to where they're only suitable for blanks.

So while we moan and complain, the changes are often driven by lawyers and insurance carriers who don't care about your stinky old guns. Those same lawyers and insurance companies are often 2A hostile.

Shop for another insurance carrier? That would be great except for the fact that you can count the number of national carriers on one hand, missing a couple fingers, who will insure active shooting range activities. Couple that with commercial liability and the number grows smaller. This is a symptom of a greater problem.