Just a simple old rifle.....Plenty of inspiration

[54ball]

I became enamored with this simple old rifle.
I had to share.
It’s a late Southern rifle if I was going to guess 1840 ish “unknown maker”.
Some may call it a poor boy but I disagree.
It’s nicer than that.
It’s got great architecture
It’s got a great cheek piece with three incised lines (dummy me did not get a photo of the cheek)
Here it is....

It has a rather high comb
The old girl shoulders like a dream both right and left handed

It’s iron mounted and the trigger guard is done expertly
This old rifle was found in Alabama other than than that, that’s pretty much all the history we have on it.

She has a fairly long forearm/lower forestock
Most of the upper fore stock is lost just past where the ramrod entry would be
There’s enough left to tell us the shape of the upper fore stock
It’s V shaped

Above you can see the length of the lower forestock

Perhaps the most interesting feature of this rifle is the butt stock
It has a heel plate, forged / filed with flats
It’s secured by what looks like three wood screws
The first screw at the heel could be a rivet. It’s hard to tell because of the severe corrosion at the heel
The upper two are definitely screws
This rifle must have spent quite some time propped up on it’s butt on a damp floor....maybe dirt or concrete
A real interesting feature is the carved line that outlines the butt edge
This rifle never had an actual buttplate, just a heel plate.

Some detail of the comb nose
Notice that it is quite angular
This is the only feature I have mixed emotions about
Part of me would rather see a gentler, rounder less angular Roman nose where the nose of the comb transitions into the wrist
Comb shape is tricky....
I get it and I do find it pleasing
Notice the forged guard

An interesting feature is the little screw where the bow of the trigger guard meets the set trigger plate
The bow appears to be notched for this screw
I don’t know if it offers any retention
It’s a mystery
Notice the set triggers
I don’t know if they are double or single set
I did not try to work them

Above you can see more detail of the iron guard and also this rifles excellent architecture through the lock and wrist region
Notice the front trigger guard extension is retained by a rather low set blind pin
The rear, by a wood screw
This would allow removal of the triggers without removing the lock
I would bet that pin hole was drilled when the stock was still “in the square”

Above we can see rr entry
It’s hard to tell as this is approaching where the fore stock is broken away and decades of wear.....
I’m of the opinion that there was an entry pipe here with a pointed tail
The forestock transitions from rounded to a v shaped upper fore stock

More to come

 

[54ball]

A hand forged barrel
Yes it is swamped very slight but it does flare at the muzzle and breech
Notice the oh so tiny front sight blade
I believe it’s tarnished silver
It may be dovetailed but I could see no evidence of a dovetail
It could be “set” into the barrel
The caliber is rather large for the period
By eye I think it’s no smaller than .45, maybe as large as .48 caliber
It’s not a .50

Here is the long strap tang
Notice it has the little chip out behind the tang
These two bolts go through the wrist into the set trigger plate
This was a well constructed rifle

More detail of the buttstock and comb
We can see here the heel plate
It’s apparent that the heel plate is indeed retained by 3 wood screws
Notice the great architecture

The side plate side shows more good architecture
The lock is retained by a single bolt and a very simple but pleasing diamond

More of the side plate side showing the start of the cheek piece
sorry I did not get a photo of the cheek with it’s three incised line....the only carving on the rifle

I hope you have enjoyed these
Later I will discuss recreating this rifle and more thoughts about that

 

[1950DAVE]

Looking forward to seeing more.

 

[reddogge]

Looks like a fun project. Does the barrel look like it could be shootable?

 

[54ball]

Looks like a fun project. Does the barrel look like it could be shootable?

Possibly Mr. Reddodge
I’m sure Ed Rayl or Bobby Hoyt could refresh or rebore it and the barrel would probably be very usable.

It would be tragic to do that to it in my opinion.

Separated from the stock....
Both the barrel and the stock remnant become pretty much worthless relics.
There’s thousands of orphan stocks an orphan barrels floating around especially from the percussion period.

Together, the old rifle remains.

That old rifle is not mine but it very well could be in the near future.

The current owner and I consider any restoration out of the question, especially making it a shooter.

The missing forestock, removing what remains of the original rifling, the deteriorating first couple of inches of the buttstock means a restoration back to a shooter will destroy what it is.

Basically, it is what it is, and what it is is pretty dang good.

A gun like this is to be studied and admired if you like it. It’s a great gun to make a pattern from and recreate.

It’s kind of like the grand old white oak at my parent’s that blew down in 2020.
That old tree dated to 1735. It was a big tree when Crocket,Coffee and Jackson came through in 1813.

My brother found a sprouted acorn, potted it and now a little tree is growing close to the old stump.

That old rifle will make a nice pattern, seed for the future and in way it will live again.
By living I mean being studied and recreated for future generations.

 

[reddogge]

That blank in the photos threw me off.

 

[54ball]

That blank in the photos threw me off.

Oh, I see.
That’s a smoothbore project for the shop.
It’s getting ready for the ramrod groove.
I’m going to start cutting it out Monday.

It’s unrelated to the rifle.
It was just a good spot to get some quick photos.
Have a great Thanksgiving

 

[oldwood]

I love old broken rifles in any condition. A few have come my way over the years , probably 'cause they weren't fancy enough for other folks , or just too broken up , and for most not repairable. I'm not into keeping them , and eventually passed them on to another interested party. Simple iron mounted rifles , wish they could talk. They were just like me , old and scared up , and each has a story , that they can't tell.

 

[Jaeger]

That's a nice-looking rifle! Oh....the stories buried in all that patina and old wood! I strongly agree with your decision to do no restoration or refinishing on this old weapon!

 

[Timber Wolf]

Tiz’ but a scratch.

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

View attachment 271211
A hand forged barrel
Yes it is swamped very slight but it does flare at the muzzle and breech
Notice the oh so tiny front sight blade
I believe it’s tarnished silver
It may be dovetailed but I could see no evidence of a dovetail
It could be “set” into the barrel
The caliber is rather large for the period
By eye I think it’s no smaller than .45, maybe as large as .48 caliber
It’s not a .50View attachment 271212
Here is the long strap tang
Notice it has the little chip out behind the tang
These two bolts go through the wrist into the set trigger plate
This was a well constructed rifle
View attachment 271213
More detail of the buttstock and comb
We can see here the heel plate
It’s apparent that the heel plate is indeed retained by 3 wood screws
Notice the great architecture
View attachment 271214
The side plate side shows more good architecture
The lock is retained by a single bolt and a very simple but pleasing diamond
View attachment 271215
More of the side plate side showing the start of the cheek piece
sorry I did not get a photo of the cheek with it’s three incised line....the only carving on the rifle

I hope you have enjoyed these
Later I will discuss recreating this rifle and more thoughts about that

thanks for sharing

 

[Salty Cracker]

That's a really neat rifle. Where did you find it? I really like the triggers. They are well constructed. Overall it is a very nice Southern rifle.

 

[54ball]

I have a brass mounted “Jacob Rosa” squirrel rifle. It’s contemporary with this iron mounted rifle. Kentucky made about 1840.
There some similarities in the furniture.

The Roosa....

As you can see the guards are similar, especially when viewed from the side
It’s like the hand forged iron guard was inspired by this general style.

 

[54ball]

OK....
Here you can see the Roosa’s entry pipe and the iron gun’s entry location.
Possibly similar.


One caveat though,
The Roosa was “restored”.
There is a possibility that the entry is a more recent replacement.
Personally I think it’s correct but...it’s something to keep in mind.

Also....
The iron Alabama gun may have never had an entry pipe. I think it it did and we are looking at the inlet but maybe not....

It’s good to have old guns to study. It helps.
Also you need to scrutinize what you are seeing.

P.S.
Looking at the iron framed rifle, I believe I see where the pin that held the entry pipe was.
It’s close to the same location on the Roosa rifle.

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

I became enamored with this simple old rifle.
I had to share.
It’s a late Southern rifle if I was going to guess 1840 ish “unknown maker”.
Some may call it a poor boy but I disagree.
It’s nicer than that.
It’s got great architecture
It’s got a great cheek piece with three incised lines (dummy me did not get a photo of the cheek)
Here it is....
View attachment 271201
It has a rather high comb
The old girl shoulders like a dream both right and left handedView attachment 271202
It’s iron mounted and the trigger guard is done expertly
This old rifle was found in Alabama other than than that, that’s pretty much all the history we have on it.View attachment 271203
She has a fairly long forearm/lower forestock
Most of the upper fore stock is lost just past where the ramrod entry would be
There’s enough left to tell us the shape of the upper fore stock
It’s V shaped
View attachment 271204
Above you can see the length of the lower forestock
View attachment 271206
Perhaps the most interesting feature of this rifle is the butt stock
It has a heel plate, forged / filed with flats
It’s secured by what looks like three wood screws
The first screw at the heel could be a rivet. It’s hard to tell because of the severe corrosion at the heel
The upper two are definitely screws
This rifle must have spent quite some time propped up on it’s butt on a damp floor....maybe dirt or concrete
A real interesting feature is the carved line that outlines the butt edge
This rifle never had an actual buttplate, just a heel plate.
View attachment 271207
Some detail of the comb nose
Notice that it is quite angular
This is the only feature I have mixed emotions about
Part of me would rather see a gentler, rounder less angular Roman nose where the nose of the comb transitions into the wrist
Comb shape is tricky....
I get it and I do find it pleasing
Notice the forged guard
View attachment 271208
An interesting feature is the little screw where the bow of the trigger guard meets the set trigger plate
The bow appears to be notched for this screw
I don’t know if it offers any retention
It’s a mystery
Notice the set triggers
I don’t know if they are double or single set
I did not try to work them

View attachment 271209
Above you can see more detail of the iron guard and also this rifles excellent architecture through the lock and wrist region
Notice the front trigger guard extension is retained by a rather low set blind pin
The rear, by a wood screw
This would allow removal of the triggers without removing the lock
I would bet that pin hole was drilled when the stock was still “in the square”
View attachment 271210
Above we can see rr entry
It’s hard to tell as this is approaching where the fore stock is broken away and decades of wear.....
I’m of the opinion that there was an entry pipe here with a pointed tail
The forestock transitions from rounded to a v shaped upper fore stock

More to come

bet that gun could tell some stories. makes my imagination run wild

 

[54ball]

bet that gun could tell some stories. makes my imagination run wild

Wonder what it did from 1861-1865.
Maybe nothing. Maybe putting food on the table.....
Yep
All we can do is wonder.

I have a revolver with stains on the bluing. Sometimes we may not want to know.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I love everything about that rifle.

I'm intrigued by the heel plate without a buttplate. I think the "Boon's Best Fren" rifle in Kentucky has a bone or antler heel plate. The description states it has a brass buttplate, but that is difficult to see in the photos. If there is any brass, it is just a strip. The Daniel Boone connection is now believed to be fake, but the rifle itself is still a very old southern gun.

Thanks for showing the Alabammy rifle! My family tree has deep roots in that state.

Notchy Bob

 

[54ball]

I love everything about that rifle.

I'm intrigued by the heel plate without a buttplate. I think the "Boon's Best Fren" rifle in Kentucky has a bone or antler heel plate. The description states it has a brass buttplate, but that is difficult to see in the photos. If there is any brass, it is just a strip. The Daniel Boone connection is now believed to be fake, but the rifle itself is still a very old southern gun.

Thanks for showing the Alabammy rifle! My family tree has deep roots in that state.

Notchy Bob

I read the old article about “Boon’s Best Fren” many years ago.
According to that period article that rifle was found in Alabama which is very interesting.
There is no doubt that the Best Fren rifle is a fake Boone gun. What may be true is the Alabama connection.
It’s all food for thought.

This iron mounted rifle was found in Alabama but it may not be an Alabama made rifle.
We just don’t know. There may be some that can recognize some attributes.
I’m not one of those guys.

I know just enough to realize I don’t know much at all.
That’s the thing about these old rifles, the more you learn about them, the less you know. It’s humbling.

 

[yellowhammer]

54ball, The iron mounted gun is mesmerizing; thanks for posting. I can't put my finger on WHY, but I get a Samuel/John Keller(Kellar) vibe when I look at it. There was significant commerce down the TN valley into AL at that time.

PS: does that asymmetrical concavity that sweeps down the comb off of the comb entry on the right side match the left side above the cheek piece?

 

[Col. Batguano]

It's always something of a dilemma concerning how much conservation and restoration to do isn't it? Do you want to bring the gun back to what it likely was when it was new? Or do you just want to stop the further decay? Replace chipped out pieces of wood? Certainly (IMHO) replacing internal springs and getting a couple of centuries of grime off the stock would be ok, as would moving the metal back in to place on the buggered up screw slots, and stopping it from rusting further, but beyond that, it's a balancing act. The gun was only new once, and now it's not.