Keeping Walker cylinder turning freely

[45D]

If I wanted to "improve it" I would do the same as SPQR70AD and start with a better gun, meaning a Remington.

Whatever floats yer boat !! They just can't shoot what my open-tops do. How about ROA's ?

Mike

 

[deerstalkert]

well, one thing this cat fight has done, it has made me want to shoot my Walkers and Remington more!

 

[D Yager]

I have posted this many times, will one more time...

I bought a 1851 Navy made by Uberti and it shoots great right out of the box, pretty good accuracy considering the sighting system.

If I wanted to "improve it" I would do the same as SPQR70AD and start with a better gun, meaning a Remington.

Interesting, just about every Remington new or not I've handled with one and only one exception has been out of time and not indexing the way it should. So how is the Remington better? If it's the closed frame argument you need to look a little closer at that "superior" frame especially where the loading ram passes thru the frame. It's real thin there as well as under the rear sight. As to the 1851 Navy...short arbor. If you tap the wedge in until it seats and the cylinder locks up it's short. You can help that pretty good accuracy and make it excellent. As to cost most of the belt pistols can be had for around 350 to 450 depending on where one looks, add 220.00 plus return shipping and you have something that will serve you for a lifetime if taken care of properly. If you find a used one for say a hundred bucks that becomes even more cost effective.

 

[French Colonial]

Makes you wonder which are more popular at pistol matches at the NMLRA.

Remington or Colts, what is your guess?

I never had any issues with the Remington I once owned and if I bought a Colt that needed work on it to make it shoot, I would sell it and buy a Remington.
Since I never plan to "hot rod" any black powder gun the whole "which design is stronger" thing is a red herring. History has answered that question.

 

[45D]

Makes you wonder which are more popular at pistol matches at the NMLRA.

Remington or Colts, what is your guess?

Oh!! Remingtons with expensive barrels screwed in for sure!! Imagine how much a "like" barrel assy would be for an open-top!!
(Which is my point about the top strap being the platform seen today for modern SAs!)

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Makes you wonder which are more popular at pistol matches at the NMLRA.

Remington or Colts, what is your guess?

I never had any issues with the Remington I once owned and if I bought a Colt that needed work on it to make it shoot, I would sell it and buy a Remington.
Since I never plan to "hot rod" any black powder gun the whole "which design is stronger" thing is a red herring. History has answered that question.

When it comes to target shooting sold frame guns rule hands down unless it an open frame venue ! Actually a properly set up open frame gun would have nearly equal accuracy potential if it has equal sighting definition capability.

 

[Smokerr]

I bought a 1851 Navy made by Uberti and it shoots great right out of the box, pretty good accuracy considering the sighting system.

If I wanted to "improve it" I would do the same as SPQR70AD and start with a better gun, meaning a Remington.

You sound very much like myself. I got a Remington as a copy of the ASP Remington I was given. Shot ok, sure never that great. Guy I sold it to, he got better accuracy out of it but again not what I think of as great. So lets put in some actual numbers and distances. My shooting is at 25 yards and hand rested (I can't hold a gun steady enough to do well, I always used 25 yards as my metric for pistols). So, 2 inches is good. 3" is decent (my opinion) past that, meh. The 47 Walker when I got it shot fine, indexed nicely, worked fine (sans the caps dumping into the hammer curve and frame curve or into the action). 5 inches. Remington was 5-6 inches. So kind of a wash.

I have an ROA, as a BP gun I love it mostly (I find that finarcky loader ram setup annoying). The 47 Walker untouiched was as accurate, probably more so. I need to talk to D Yager and Mike to see if they think it can be improved accuracy wise.

Since I started working on the short arbor on the 47 Walker, its gotten a lot better. I had one 6 shot group of 1 inch. Now I call that a one off, something came in sync both load wise and how I had the Wedge set, but there it was. 3 inch groups it will come out when I get it all setup in its sweet spot.

Now I am something of a Piker. To start I used washers for shims (shame on me) as well as stacking beer can shims as the washers caved.

I think I was giving it a decent smack, no sighns of wrecking it. But Mike and his decent smack with a small plastic mallet, hmmm. So, I have a range box and bought one just to keep in there so I was not using a wood block or screwdriver handle. So the wedge seating was decent even if the shim setup sucked.

Well that all went to heck last shooting session, I made up a shim to let me keep shooting but am working on the right fix. Its not that I did not believe Mike or D Yager, it was I just did not want to spend the time making it, I was into quick and easy. And for me it also was a way to get my mind around the mechanics of it, what various shim sizes did to .

Get it too much and the barrel assemly would not contact the frame.

Too little and cylinder bind. Someplace just about right, good accuracy but some aspects of the cylinder gap (end shake).

Saturday night special comes to mind. Low cost guns, not a given they were junk as the broader perception got to be, but not a S&W or a Colt (and latter Ruger etc). Some of them were over the edge and not worth fixing. Some did fine for the cost and use.

The Itallian guns are made to a price point. Doesn't matter if they are a Ubertti or a Pietta. Most that buy them are not into smooth or accuracy. They want the fun of black powder shooting. That is fine but leaves a void where those who know what they can do want them capable of doing it. Mike and D Yager fill that need be it open top or close top.

You are are not going to get a S&W qualoity gun out of the box and as was noted, they all have custom shops to slick them up.

My two ROA were setup wrong for the Bolt. Drag marks. Mike was gracious to give me time on a phone call to fix that. So Ruger had its quality issues. Both unlocked the bolt ok, but it then came back up and touched the cylinder until it indexed into the slot. Ok, fixed. Modern gun not setup right.

ddd

 

[M. De Land]

Well bless your heart, you've managed to be even more silly than the last few postings. First off what difference does all that make as long as the chambers and bore are in alignment, the pistol goes bang the bullet goes down the barrel and heads off to where you aimed it. There's always gonna be manufacturing tolerance errors that need to be dealt with on these replicas such as short arbors, late timing and chamber misalignment. So just for the sake of argument( you seem to live for argument) what is your solution for dealing with slight chamber to barrel misalignment? Do you install a bolt guide before you attempt to set timing? Do you install an action stop? Just askin on account of the tremendous amount of knowledge that you seem to have on a platform you don't understand.

Ever hear of bullet distortion from angular misalignment ! An angular misaligned cylinder chamber with the bore has the same effect as a angular misaligned chamber in a rifle barrel. It launches the projectile out of square to the bore and when it hits the forcing cone it distorts it's shape. Angle cutting the forcing cone has the same effect introducing the bullet to the bore and hence is equally useless.
A revolver can at times shoot good groups to 25 yards and on occasion to 50 with balls but beyond both angular and co-axial misalignment begins to show up with conicals.
With bullets you will often be able to detect tipping on target.
The reason custom revolvers are occasionally capable of MOA accuracy at 100 yards is because of bore align reaming of the chambers insuring perfect chamber/bore alignment angular and on x-y axis.

 

[D Yager]

I see, and how many people can shoot the difference? I see you haven't answered my earlier questions, I think that most of these replica revolvers are held to close enough tolerances that all that techno spew you came up with really isn't a factor. If I had to worry about all that stuff you mentioned I couldn't turn one out for less than a 1000.00 just in labor alone. I check the ones that come through my shop with a rod sized to fit the bore for the purpose of checking alignment of chambers to the bore. A small misalignment can be compensated for. So far the only really bad ones I have seen were from Palmetto and Armi San Paolo. I must have the worlds oddest Ruger Old Army on account of having rough chambers and a sewer pipe bore it still flings a 200 grn semi wadcutter minute of jackrabbit at 75 yards.

 

[D Yager]

Mr Smokerr, not at all surprised on the Rugers, they like dropping the bolt early I think to prevent throw by. The bolt is acting like a brake in addition to the hand doing likewise. There is a fix but it's not for the faint of heart as one little stroke of a file too much and your gonna be buying parts. It always puzzled me as to why Ruger would even bother with lead in cuts on the cylinder when the bolt drop is so far from the locking notches.

 

[Smokerr]

Talked with Mike and he ensured I knew where to file. Got em both fixed.

I have to admit I had not thought on intent, but its true, often there is an intent to something even if we disagree with it.

 

[M. De Land]

I see, and how many people can shoot the difference? I see you haven't answered my earlier questions, I think that most of these replica revolvers are held to close enough tolerances that all that techno spew you came up with really isn't a factor. If I had to worry about all that stuff you mentioned I couldn't turn one out for less than a 1000.00 just in labor alone. I check the ones that come through my shop with a rod sized to fit the bore for the purpose of checking alignment of chambers to the bore. A small misalignment can be compensated for. So far the only really bad ones I have seen were from Palmetto and Armi San Paolo. I must have the worlds oddest Ruger Old Army on account of having rough chambers and a sewer pipe bore it still flings a 200 grn semi wadcutter minute of jackrabbit at 75 yards.

The point is to make the machine as accurate and error proof as possible so as not to add to the foibles of the shooter.
The rub comes in the difference of opinion of how to make the machine do it's intended work.
Range rods are only rough alignment check tools. A better check is a 2 inch plug gauge that will just barely traverse the bore over any high spots and slide into each chamber to full depth of it's own accord.
Actually you can look down a .44 bore muzzle with a goose neck lamp and see any misalignment using the bore like an aperture sight looking into each chamber. .36 cal and smaller are tough to do this with.

 

[M. De Land]

Mr Smokerr, not at all surprised on the Rugers, they like dropping the bolt early I think to prevent throw by. The bolt is acting like a brake in addition to the hand doing likewise. There is a fix but it's not for the faint of heart as one little stroke of a file too much and your gonna be buying parts. It always puzzled me as to why Ruger would even bother with lead in cuts on the cylinder when the bolt drop is so far from the locking notches.

The lead in notch allows more depth of bolt drop against the far window wall and cylinder notch which makes a larger foot print impact area,lessening the chance of wallowing them out from cylinder inertia.
You can always stretch a hand but misfile a ratchet tooth and your screwed.

 

[M. De Land]

Maybe you could point out those of my "ideas" ( probably NOT my ideas) you question and make this a "teaching" moment for the folks reading this? As we have almost 200 yrs of established Colt action and design, it may definitely be most interesting.

Mike

We've already argued over most of them but here goes again.
1. A open frame gun with a short arbor will self destruct and is not accurate.
2. Open frame design is as inherently strong as is closed frame design of equal mass.
3 A hand stroke has any braking action on cylinder inertia.
4. A hand spring increases it's tension as it rises in the chimney.
5. Early bolt drop has no practical benefit.
6. filing a barrel breech face to make it parallel to cylinder face.
7. End fitting an arbor adds reinforcement against barrel separation.
8. Drilling and tapping the end of an arbor slot weakens it.
9. A properly fitting wedge made of tool steel has any benefit to overall performance and strength.
Useful idea's
1. end fitting of arbor.
2. action shields
3. synthetic grease filled action
4. cap rakes on problem revolvers
5. wire springs on bolt and trigger

 

[D Yager]

You have part of it right...Finally.

 

[M. De Land]

You have part of it right...Finally.

 

[45D]

We've already argued over most of them but here goes again.
1. A open frame gun with a short arbor will self destruct and is not accurate.
2. Open frame design is as inherently strong as is closed frame design of equal mass.
3 A hand stroke has any braking action on cylinder inertia.
4. A hand spring increases it's tension as it rises in the chimney.
5. Early bolt drop has no practical benefit.
6. filing a barrel breech face to make it parallel to cylinder face.
7. End fitting an arbor adds reinforcement against barrel separation.
8. Drilling and tapping the end of an arbor slot weakens it.
9. A properly fitting wedge made of tool steel has any benefit to overall performance and strength.
Useful idea's
1. end fitting of arbor.
2. action shields
3. synthetic grease filled action
4. cap rakes on problem revolvers
5. wire springs on bolt and trigger

Ok boys and girls, once again here we go !!!
I. Never said they weren't accurate, said they would be MECHANICALLY accurate after take down and reassembly. You have the same revolver you had before you broke it down. As far as "self destruction" the brass frame revolvers suffer from cylinder imprint depending on how much movement the cylinder has fore and aft (endshake) and can cause the arbor to pull from its mounting in the frame. On steel revolvers, personal experience reveals misshapen wedges to the point of extremely hard removal necessitating replacement . . . not to mention damage to the wedge slot both arbor and barrel assembly. Extreame cases can allow the loss of the end of the arbor . . . like this -

2. Ok, "mass" . . . your word, not mine. Just recently I reiterated that I said "the open-top platform is stronger than the Remington platform" which a year before I even came to this forum started me down the road of testing the open-top platform using the then new 45acp conversion cylinder in an Uberti 1860 Army. After introducing 45acp +p ammo into the test, it became clear that a CORRECT open-top platform of belt pistol size could in fact fire ammo that the 1873 Colt Mod. P (and same size copies of such as those by Pietta) can't handle.
There you go, proof all by itself that a "same size" (the basic frame sizes are the same) open-top platform (predecessor) made with modern materials can best a TOP STRAP Colt Mod P and its copies of "like" material !!! Obviously, the larger Dragoon series open-tops are even stronger and they have entered into the testing "program" as well.

3+4. This one SHOULD be easy for most of you. If you remove the back strap and trigger guard you can then remove the hammer with the hand. Remove the hand and reinstall the hammer. Pull hammer to half cock and spin the cylinder and notice how easily the cylinder turns!! Now replace the hand and spin the cylinder. Notice the cylinder doesn't "freewheel" as easy as before and there is a "clicking" sound!! The hand is imparting a "braking action" as the cylinder spins.
When the hammer is cycling normally to full cock, the tension of the hand spring will be increased because the nose of the hand is moving vertically while the forward angle of the hand slot is compressing the attached spring as the cycle continues. This spring tension keeps the hand fully engaged between two ratchet teeth helping to control the rotation of the cylinder.

5. The only benefit gained from "early" bolt drop in a Colt type action is to indicate a "wearing" situation between action parts. "Bolt drop" is a defined "moment" in the action cycle and it has a specific reference point.
Of course anybody can decide that "early bolt drop" is some how beneficial and set up a revolver that way . . . but for nearly 200 yrs Colt instructions for timing setup has worked as designed and needs no change. As an aside, a "turn line" (ring on the cylinder) of a Colt SAA will decrease its value.

6. The barrel "breech face" on an open-top revolver is a bearing surface for the cylinder to butt against and isn't part of the bore "proper" ( if it was, there would be rifling). The forcing cone starts inside of the breech face and can be seen when one opens the factory f.c. to an 11° f.c. . . . the breech face is untouched.
When correcting an arbor length, the breech face can be "adjusted" to regain a "square" or equal opening without disturbing barrel bore or forcing cone. This will allow minimal gas escape.

7. When the wedge is driven in, it will impart great force AGAINST the end of the arbor. THAT is what keeps the end from coming off as pictured above. If the barrel assy ISNT against the arbor, the barrel can PUSH the end of the arbor off BECAUSE the arbor end has no support ( since the wedge CAN'T impart tension (it has nothing to push against)).
If the barrel assy IS against the the arbor, there will naturally be resistance and with the wedge driven, in the tension is extreme! When the bullet hits the barrel, the barrel with tension against the arbor will try to pull the arbor from the frame.

8. With the above scenario, the forces are fore and aft. The footprint of the arbor end is fully against the bottom of the arbor hole in the barrel assy. The wedge is imparting tension in the same manner and all materials are stressed the same way.
If it's weaker, it can still handle pressures that many other revolvers can't . . . I'll take it !!

9. A wedge made of the finest material only needs to do what the stock wedges do. Since there is absolutely no changes in the wedges in my test revolvers with their factory wedges, there's really no reason to change them.

As for the "useful ideas"-

1. That info came from Larson Pettifogger about 15 yrs ago.
2. Thanks, thought that up one day but I'm sure it's been done in the past.
3. Thanks to the cowboy shooting crowd.
4. Again, cowboy crowd.
5. Ruger

Mike

 

[Smokerr]

As Mr. Spock would say, fascinating!

What helped me was to pull the wedge and look at the far end of the arbor slot, hmm, flat. Near end you can't see, hmm, Wedge pushes against the barrel assembly. Ok, I began to get it (a while back).

I have not come up with a like area of mechanics where you tension and compress (hopefully that is said right).

As I said before, the whole thing is just plain (or not so plain) elegant. Like an engine with perfect primary and secondary balance. What an amazing mind to come up with that.

 

[D Yager]

Mike, you couldn't have put it better! Personally I want my revolvers to be as consistent and accurate as I can make them. Having the same gun each time it's put together is a big part of it. The other things all add up to make it as reliable as possible. All that talk about cylinder alignment and bore axis having to be perfect really doesn't matter to guys that are shooting these things, they want it to go bang and hit what they pointed it toward consistently. If you think about it with a clear head the cylinder to bore alignment can off a little, the forcing cone takes care of that. Drilling and tapping the end of the arbor won't have much effect on strength, It;s being compressed into the barrel lug as noted, It is in a tension situation not a shear one. The fit of the arbor in the hole in the lug takes the shear part out of the equation. Item #5 on your list of useful things wire springs for the bolt and trigger, torsion type springs are the way to go, those wire combination springs are just as likely to fail as the flat one is. I have yet to see a torsion type spring fail.