Kibler Brown Bess?

[FlinterNick]

I will not be buying a Bess or a Charleville, if you are not into military reenacting why would you buy a clunky military gun when you can buy Jim's fowler?

A very fine military arm that can double as a hunting gun is a British light infantry fusil.

I would also state that there are number of Jaeger Patterns specific to some reenactment units that are excellent as well.

This Pistor Jaeger Lock is one of the best military rifle locks I’ve ever assembled.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Imagine a Bess Lock that will function perfect with a minimal of work.
And looks good also....

 

[French Colonial]

If I did not have a custom made Caywood type C/D (the only one Caywood ever made) I would have already ordered Mr. Kibler's fowler.

Military reenactors should buy the closest thing to what their particular reenacting group approves of.

People interested in a smoothbore that is a joy to carry in the woods should avoid military weapons, that is my opinion YMMV.

 

[FlinterNick]

If I did not have a custom made Caywood type C/D (the only one Caywood ever made) I would have already ordered Mr. Kibler's fowler.

Military reenactors should buy the closest thing to what their particular reenacting group approves of.

People interested in a smoothbore that is a joy to carry in the woods should avoid military weapons, that is my opinion YMMV.

Most reenactment groups will make exceptions for the muskets, even go as far as letting some people use third model brown Bess’s. They try to encourage membership. Even battle Road compliance which is very strict is more worried about things like hats and coats and cartridges boxes and each group often has sutlers that make their own kits.

 

[FlinterNick]

Imagine a Bess Lock that will function perfect with a minimal of work.
And looks good also....

If by perfect you mean consistently spark, most brown Bess locks will achieve this. They were not designed to be products of perfect engineering, my opinion they were designed to be flint smashers. 75-85 lbs mainspring with a large pan that could hold a lot of large grain powder. Oversized parts to resist wear. Their frizzens were not made of high quality steel too, i think the best comparison could be 1040-1060 at best.

Track of the Wolf’s short lived brown Bess lock was a nice working lock made with CNC internals and a CNC cut mainspring. I’m not sure what shop they were using but they did a fine job on that lock, other than the plate which is is kind of junky. It’s a consistent sparker that does not miss a beat.

However its authenticity is lacking, the cock is the wrong shape, and the plate is too small for a 1742 model, it’s close but not all the way there.

 

[fireman1]

if you are not into military reenacting why would you buy a clunky military gun when you can buy Jim's fowler?

Because guns are fun? More guns are more fun.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

If by perfect you mean consistently spark, most brown Bess locks will achieve this. They were not designed to be products of perfect engineering, my opinion they were designed to be flint smashers. 75-85 lbs mainspring with a large pan that could hold a lot of large grain powder. Oversized parts to resist wear. Their frizzens were not made of high quality steel too, i think the best comparison could be 1040-1060 at best.

Track of the Wolf’s short lived brown Bess lock was a nice working lock made with CNC internals and a CNC cut mainspring. I’m not sure what shop they were using but they did a fine job on that lock, other than the plate which is is kind of junky. It’s a consistent sparker that does not miss a beat.

However its authenticity is lacking, the cock is the wrong shape, and the plate is too small for a 1742 model, it’s close but not all the way there.

Nick my experience is limited to getting T/C Lyman locks to function the best they can for what it is worth.
Just for my own use on my personal stuff...

 

[FlinterNick]

Nick my experience is limited to getting T/C Lyman locks to function the best they can for what it is worth.
Just for my own use on my personal stuff...

I see, yea those locks are hit or miss.

 

[French Colonial]

Because guns are fun? More guns are more fun.

I owned a Miroku Bess, it was more fun when I sold it.

 

[User_Dan]

I don't reenact and have zero interest in that fact. I do love history and appreciate fine guns, hence my statement to buy a kibler AWI bess, any model, any year.

 

[Kev308]

I vote for a Bess!! The older the better!

 

[TF Black]

Well so far we’ve made a little bit of progress: there seems to be some consensus toward a mid-18th century Long Land, preferably with choice of ramrod.

Of course, this being MLF.com, we also had some mention of Indian guns; some squabbling about models and nomenclature; several suggestions to build something else (which obviously isn’t the point of the thread!) ; and even had a couple members weigh in to volunteer that they wouldn’t be interested (thanks for contributing to the discussion). Classic!

 

[longcruise]

I will not be buying a Bess or a Charleville, if you are not into military reenacting why would you buy a clunky military gun when you can buy Jim's fowler?

I'll stick my neck out and say I agree. Not that I criticize Jim's thoughts on reproducing one. I'm sure reenactors will buy them as well as those who just want one. Me not buying one will have no effect on the Kibler bottom line. The offering will probably drive a lot of traffic to his website and some of those people will buy something else.

 

[longcruise]

and even had a couple members weigh in to volunteer that they wouldn’t be interested (thanks for contributing to the discussion). Classic!

Might seem counterproductive to some but I expect Jim is interested in considering all opinions on it.

 

[Adam in WI]

The offering will probably drive a lot of traffic to his website and some of those people will buy something else.

That right there would be a huge secondary benefit. 10 months ago I had no idea his company existed; now I'd like to have one of everything he offers.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

No sale here. Have no interest in a smooth bore, I like rifles. I sometimes think I am the only person in the world who doesn't have something they want Jim Kibler to make. If I want a particular style I make it myself. Currently working on a J Henry and Sons Lancaster pattern trade rifle that I have wanted for more years than I can remember, finally getting it done. My next one will be a Mauger with a drooping feather patch box. Then going to do an early Reading style, haven't decided if it will be a brass or wood patch box yet. The last one will probably be an Indiana style half stock from a piece of Indiana Black Walnut I have left. Will also be a couple pistols in there. Get those done and I will pretty much be out of parts and I will be done building just hope I can get all the parts I have used up.

 

[Tenring]

There are much more interesting rifles out there than a Bess like Verner, York, Beck, Lehigh, Fighorn,Dickert and the list goes on. I would rather a Charleville if he wants a military arm to offer the public. Just my two cents weather it matters or not.

 

[Relic shooter]

To me it's hard to top the ruggedness & attractive lines of French military flintlock pistols

 

[brazosland]

I would like to see a smooth bore furtrade era pistol.

A good Bess would be cool, but honestly I’m not sure how broad the market would actually be for that outside our small world of historical interest.

The French gun was more common and a better weapon…but no one outside of the real hobbyist nerds know that info.

What about a Commitee of Safety style Musket? Uniquely American, most lay people would think it’s a Bess, lots of historical relevance and a bit easier in the hand and useful in the field.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Weight was an issue.

The heaviest French musket was a 1763, and it weighed just under 10 1/2 lbs, the ones sent to the USA were around 9.5 lbs, the 1766 was an incredible 8lbs. It’s also not just the weight of the gun. The total kit was lighter, the cartridge box was light as it used smaller ammo, the bayonet etc.

Remember these soldiers were starving, they had to march often on empty stomachs and then go into battle.

Furthermore by the time the continental army was outfitted with 1766’s and 1774’s while the primary arm of the British army was the short land brown bess after 1777, not the long land… so weight and size was also an issue for the British.

Not only that. Look how much they lighten the uniform coats between 1775 to 1781. Weight matters when you are marching 25 miles a day. It wears you out.