Kibler Hawken update,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Grenadier1758]

I thought the original Hawkens were Flintlock action ?

The only verifiable early Hawken flint lock was the Pennsylvania style rifle built by Sam Hawken in Xenia, Ohio. There were perhaps some documentations that their father built flint lock rifles and maybe some flint lock rifles built by brothers that remained in Maryland.

Certainly, the Hawken brothers were capable of building a flint lock rifle. There is no evidence that any of the Plains Rifles were anything but percussion. There are several J&S Hawken Plains rifles that have converted flint locks to percussion, but the stock architecture is for the converted percussion lock. No cut out for the flint cock to stop on the lock plate. The Ashley rifle built around 1825 may have been a flint lock, but there is no documentation of its lock configuration. In the famous newspaper article, Sam mentions that they built a rifle for Ashley and mentions caliber (62) but not much in other details.

 

[longcruise]

Exactly….in these last 50 years since I received my “authentic” replica Hawken from Green River Rifle Works…I must have heard every minute detail argued, dissected, minced rehashed, refried, revisited…blah blah blah…..it has become tedious listening to the “experts” pontificate, speculate and dismiss….yeah I’m mocking self appointed authority.

I kinda agree with that. I've heard and read so much about exactly what makes it a Hawken that I'm pretty much willing to accept just about anything as authentic.

There's a story, alleged to be true, that a couple guys built a "Hawken" and presented it to Baird for his consideration and he pronounced it authentic.

 

[Patched]

I kinda agree with that. I've heard and read so much about exactly what makes it a Hawken that I'm pretty much willing to accept just about anything as authentic.

There's a story, alleged to be true, that a couple guys built a "Hawken" and presented it to Baird for his consideration and he pronounced it authentic.

Poor John….(I read every Buckskin Report, his books and talked to him at the gunshows in Reno when he’d show up)
He wanted a Hawken to be the gravitational center of the western fur trade universe…”a 1818 Jake flinter was about to surface any minute”…that would prove it was THEE gun of the rendezvous mountain man.

But Hawken guns were more gold rush era western expansion….Baird eventually learned he was an aficionado and that there were actually historical research methods and credentials when accessing artifactual significance…I heard that he got spoofed similarly to your story.

Baird certainly contributed to the inflated significance of the famous St Louis rifle…in the 70s 80s Hawken everywhere craze.

James Forsyth’s book from 1850 touted sporting rifles similar to a Hawken for English sporting and safari purposes….1800 in England, mass production with interchangeable parts was starting up as was rifled muskets…patent breeches, halfstocks with ribbed barrels , cap ignition and conical bullets soon followed.
Hawken rifles were somewhat frontier mock ups of quality English gun innovations…Henrys and Tryon were widely available for fur trade mountain men at half the price…

 

[Frontstuffer070]

Yawn, Some of this makes me tired. I'm buying a well researched Rifle KIT that will look the part, MADE IN THE USA by a Small business that a VERY good Gun Smith started up with his family. The quality of the end result is going to be fantastic! A rifle that will serve me well, feed me well, and serve my Son well later on down the road. I'm sure whatever Kit Jim offers is going to be as close as he can possibly make it.

 

[longcruise]

Yawn, Some of this makes me tired. I'm buying a well researched Rifle KIT that will look the part, MADE IN THE USA by a Small business that a VERY good Gun Smith started up with his family. The quality of the end result is going to be fantastic! A rifle that will serve me well, feed me well, and serve my Son well later on down the road. I'm sure whatever Kit Jim offers is going to be as close as he can possibly make it.

You are absolutely 100% right on. These topics can end up going off on many tangents but nothing here should be taken as relating to the quality and desireability of Kiblers products.

 

[sturmkatze]

So is the consensus that the original Hawkens had what finish on the metal?

There’s no consensus. None.

 

[beardedhorse]

Hot charcoal blue is where charcoal is inside the bore and the barrel buried in a trough surrounded by charcoal. It is ignited and the heat gives it the color. Earlier Hawkens including that of Christian Jake and Sam 's father were flintlick. See The Gunsmith of Greenville County for color photo of a flintlock Hawken.

 

[Kmcmichael]

No problem, my fault, and I can see where it could have been misconstrued.

I do agree the rust blued and it is my favorite finish for metal. I’ve only finished one gun like that and it came out great.
I would like to see some testing to see if it is more rust resistant than browning.

Hot charcoal blue is where charcoal is inside the bore and the barrel buried in a trough surrounded by charcoal. It is ignited and the heat gives it the color. Earlier Hawkens including that of Christian Jake and Sam 's father were flintlick. See The Gunsmith of Greenville County for color photo of a flintlock Hawken.

Thanks, another question, this seems identical to color case hardening. Is there a difference?

 

[Ditt44]

I kinda agree with that. I've heard and read so much about exactly what makes it a Hawken that I'm pretty much willing to accept just about anything as authentic.

There's a story, alleged to be true, that a couple guys built a "Hawken" and presented it to Baird for his consideration and he pronounced it authentic.

Back to several prior comments including some of mine, it is just more logical to say "Hawken style" and allow for variants within that just as you have schools for colonial era long guns. Of course, humans being d*cks, they'll have to argue about what design elements constitute a "Hawken style" and then here we go again...

 

[Sylvester Pattie]

I do agree the rust blued and it is my favorite finish for metal. I’ve only finished one gun like that and it came out great.
I would like to see some testing to see if it is more rust resistant than browning.

Thanks, another question, this seems identical to color case hardening. Is there a difference?

In color case hardening the iron or steel parts are packed in bone meal or bone ash and heated to a specific temperature and allowed to slow cool before removal. The phosphorus compounds in the bone can produce the variety of colors while pure charcoal will just produce a single color.

 

[springfield art]

.45 as well from Jim's FB post

Much of his success has been from responding to clients' requests...if people want a .45, there will be a .45......now, you ".32 cal." guys, you'll just have to suck it up, as that simply is not a Hawken-type caliber!

 

[Gum Slough Muzzleloader]

For those who don't have access to Facebook (like me), here's the link to Jim Kibler's "Hawken Interest" Sign Up Sheet. (I signed up for a .54)

https://airtable.com/appchipql1qcDCW61/pagbhtvS1SXi6aGCw/form

VA Hawken, thank you.

GSM

 

[Gum Slough Muzzleloader]

Much of his success has been from responding to clients' requests...if people want a .45, there will be a .45......now, you ".32 cal." guys, you'll just have to suck it up, as that simply is not a Hawken-type caliber!

Ok, I understand about a .32 Hawken.
What a about a .32 caliber Woodsrunner?

 

[Crew Chief]

We are on the 6th page of the original post. Some of it has been informative and some of it a bit of rehash from way back. I hope that we can all agree that the original Hawken rifles were all different because of the personal taste of the owner. Some that could afford an extra dollar or two would get some embelleshiments. They were all hand built. Caliber choice was up to the buyer. Was there a flintlock version, who cares except for a historical find and there seems not to be much information on that subject.

I have two GPRs, one percussion and one flintlock. I also have a Johnathan Browning Mt. Rifle in .45 caliber. I have a John Bergmann Hawken that I had made. Every one of these rifles are different in some way and are they an authenic reproductions? I don't care.

I finished a Kibler SMR last February that is different from my friend's SMR. I really enjoyed the learning process of building the SMR. It came out the way I wanted with the faux antique used finish. When I get my Kibler Hawken kit, I am going to try and get ideas the Hawkens that are in the Woodfill book and have fun building it. The point is, if you are a collector and or a historian, good for you. If you are a hunter or a plinker like myself, go have a good time and not worry about scratches or if your rifle is authenic. I don't think the game you hunt care. Folks, just enjoy the hobby no matter what your taste is.

We are not unique here on this forum when it comes to those that push for authenticity and tradtion. I am into hot rods also, and the traditionalists will get all over you if you convert your points distributor to electronic even if you can't see the conversion. I am building a 1930 Ford chopped coupe with a 327 sbc and 3 deuce carburetors. I am going to catch some flak over the electronic ignition system I am putting in. I grew up in the 50s and 60s where worn or burned out points were the norm. Electronic ignition is an improvement that I like and will use. I had one guy tell me that no one ran 16 tires in the 60s on their coupes. I don't care.

Folks, just go and enjoy what you like. Life is too short as it is. Besides, I have a feeling not many of us on this forum can afford and original Hawken.

 

[Gum Slough Muzzleloader]

We are on the 6th page of the original post. Some of it has been informative and some of it a bit of rehash from way back. I hope that we can all agree that the original Hawken rifles were all different because of the personal taste of the owner. Some that could afford an extra dollar or two would get some embelleshiments. They were all hand built. Caliber choice was up to the buyer. Was there a flintlock version, who cares except for a historical find and there seems not to be much information on that subject.

I have two GPRs, one percussion and one flintlock. I also have a Johnathan Browning Mt. Rifle in .45 caliber. I have a John Bergmann Hawken that I had made. Every one of these rifles are different in some way and are they an authenic reproductions? I don't care.

I finished a Kibler SMR last February that is different from my friend's SMR. I really enjoyed the learning process of building the SMR. It came out the way I wanted with the faux antique used finish. When I get my Kibler Hawken kit, I am going to try and get ideas the Hawkens that are in the Woodfill book and have fun building it. The point is, if you are a collector and or a historian, good for you. If you are a hunter or a plinker like myself, go have a good time and not worry about scratches or if your rifle is authenic. I don't think the game you hunt care. Folks, just enjoy the hobby no matter what your taste is.

We are not unique here on this forum when it comes to those that push for authenticity and tradtion. I am into hot rods also, and the traditionalists will get all over you if you convert your points distributor to electronic even if you can't see the conversion. I am building a 1930 Ford chopped coupe with a 327 sbc and 3 deuce carburetors. I am going to catch some flak over the electronic ignition system I am putting in. I grew up in the 50s and 60s where worn or burned out points were the norm. Electronic ignition is an improvement that I like and will use. I had one guy tell me that no one ran 16 tires in the 60s on their coupes. I don't care.

Folks, just go and enjoy what you like. Life is too short as it is. Besides, I have a feeling not many of us on this forum can afford and original Hawken.

Well said.
Thank you.
GSM