Kibler Hawken update,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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Many of us who shoot cappers are simply making our own. I could easily keep myself supplied otherwise. Caps prices are high for sure but it hasn't stopped people in know from shooting. New shooters particularly don't have the memories of inexpensive caps and most come from the modern side of shooting and reloading that have been hit much harder in terms of availability and cost. They take it in stride.
I don't buy the argument that flints are absolutely cheaper to shoot. I well say that they can be, but they can also be more expensive to shoot at $37/12 some flints you might get 20-30 shots but from what I see at our club shoots most of the guy's get 3-4 targets and then they struggle with alignment, knapping, etc. now out of that dozen unless you are hand picking the flints you get maybe 3-6 that will work for your gun without any fidgeting with it. I'm lucky enough to be able to actually go into track 10 times a year their price for caps is reasonable and normally they have one or the other of the 3 most popular brands in stock. Long way around to say I agree with Longcruise cap shooting isn't that expensive
 
At my ML club and at our CNY BP shoots, there are darn few flinters. Avid percussion shooters, but a lot of folks simply dont want to /cant make the dedicated leap to flint. Cool. They are still shooting. I enjoy shooting flint also, but by far shoot more percussion. For me, the Hawken style rifle is a much more practical traditional ML design for hunting here in very wet/damp NY weather than a flinter. So far, Lyman had the best compromise on price and design for me. Initially I wasnt too interested in what I was thinking Mr Kibler had going...but after seeing his video and hearing his plan I am very interested in what sounds like a period correct upgrade to my current rifle. I am not at all concerned it is an exact copy of a Hawken rifle....None of his other three were exact copies either. It sounds like it is intended to be an ..idealized version. And I aint carrying it on a horse or smacking injuns over the head with it. I am certainly now looking forward to seeing the production version of it.
 
At my ML club and at our CNY BP shoots, there are darn few flinters. Avid percussion shooters, but a lot of folks simply dont want to /cant make the dedicated leap to flint. Cool. They are still shooting. I enjoy shooting flint also, but by far shoot more percussion. For me, the Hawken style rifle is a much more practical traditional ML design for hunting here in very wet/damp NY weather than a flinter. So far, Lyman had the best compromise on price and design for me. Initially I wasnt too interested in what I was thinking Mr Kibler had going...but after seeing his video and hearing his plan I am very interested in what sounds like a period correct upgrade to my current rifle. I am not at all concerned it is an exact copy of a Hawken rifle....None of his other three were exact copies either. It sounds like it is intended to be an ..idealized version. And I aint carrying it on a horse or smacking injuns over the head with it. I am certainly now looking forward to seeing the production version of it.
My club is the opposite only a few use percussions and they are usually the younger shooters, or newer shooters. I guess it likely geography based, being in Kentucky it's flints, When I was in Kansas a majority was percussion Hawken styled rifles. When in TN is was TN Mt/SMR styled mix of percussion and flint. I hope the new Kibler version meets you goals, I too am interested in a 58. - best of luck my friend.
 
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I'm working on a Allen arms/Uberti kit from the early 1980s. It looks very similar to Mr. Kibler design, maybe if i hustle ill have it finish in time to get a Kibler Hawkin kit. I signed up for one, don't have a gun in cherry. I'm one of those that's looking forward to whatever the finished product looks like, thank you Mr. Kibler (my allen has a 15 inch lop,it fits me)
 
Why must everything be the same? It is 200 years later. "Jim, sorry, can't buy your offering because you used electricity during the manufacturing process.". Really???

That might as well be what some of you are saying. Don't like it, don't buy it. And enough pontificating and self righteousness. People wonder why this country can't just get along....
Great comment
 
That’s interesting, FC. Just hasn’t been my experience here in Pacific Northwest, where virtually everyone I know (with a couple of exceptions) and those I’ve come across at various rendezvous within the surrounding states, are shooting flintlocks.

I simply can’t help but feel as though a flintlock Hawken is a missed opportunity, their lack of historical prevalence notwithstanding. That’s what I had been been hearing excited whispers about for the past several months. As others have alluded to, maybe Kibler will offer a conversion kit somewhere down the road, and I hope

That’s interesting, FC. Just hasn’t been my experience here in Pacific Northwest, where virtually everyone I know (with a couple of exceptions) and those I’ve come across at various rendezvous within the surrounding states, are shooting flintlocks.

I simply can’t help but feel as though a flintlock Hawken is a missed opportunity, their lack of historical prevalence notwithstanding. That’s what I had been been hearing excited whispers about for the past several months. As others have alluded to, maybe Kibler will offer a conversion kit somewhere down the road, and I hope he does.
https://www.nmlra.org/news/HawkenFlintlockorNotBobWoodfill
 
I know the approach I've used in designing this rifle is not for every person and that's of course okay. I would like to elaborate on my personal perspective just a bit though... No, this rifle will not be exactly like any original existing Hawken rifle, and I believe this to be a good thing!!! I don't drink the Hawken Kool-Aid. I really don't fully understand the widespread alure or fascination.

From the perspective of a previous high end custom gunbuilder, the design and workmanship of the vast majority of originals is pretty weak. So, why would I want to repeat what I see as shortcomings? What I've done is create a gun that has characteristics of many Hawken rifles and other guns from the same time period and generally similar geographic area in such a way that I am pleased. Really, this isn't any different than I've done on any of our other offerings as well! The only difference is these guns don't have the cult following. This is pretty much the approach many of the best custom builders today.

To be perfectly frank, I find many or most Hawken originals and contemporary recreations to be pretty awful. Sure, they have some neat characteristics, but as a whole I think they don't stand up well. I'm trying to change this.

As to the name, I don't really have much of an opinion... Hawken is very recognizable and that is a good thing. Think about all the crummy kit guns with names attached to them from years past. So, if someone doesn't like the name associated with our kit, I don't know what to tell you.

Okay, enough pontificating! The response from this latest offering has been absolutely amazing! Better than we've ever seen before. So please accept my heart felt thank you! Our customer base is really amazing.
 
I know the approach I've used in designing this rifle is not for every person and that's of course okay. I would like to elaborate on my personal perspective just a bit though... No, this rifle will not be exactly like any original existing Hawken rifle, and I believe this to be a good thing!!! I don't drink the Hawken Kool-Aid. I really don't fully understand the widespread alure or fascination.

From the perspective of a previous high end custom gunbuilder, the design and workmanship of the vast majority of originals is pretty weak. So, why would I want to repeat what I see as shortcomings? What I've done is create a gun that has characteristics of many Hawken rifles and other guns from the same time period and generally similar geographic area in such a way that I am pleased. Really, this isn't any different than I've done on any of our other offerings as well! The only difference is these guns don't have the cult following. This is pretty much the approach many of the best custom builders today.

To be perfectly frank, I find many or most Hawken originals and contemporary recreations to be pretty awful. Sure, they have some neat characteristics, but as a whole I think they don't stand up well. I'm trying to change this.

As to the name, I don't really have much of an opinion... Hawken is very recognizable and that is a good thing. Think about all the crummy kit guns with names attached to them from years past. So, if someone doesn't like the name associated with our kit, I don't know what to tell you.

Okay, enough pontificating! The response from this latest offering has been absolutely amazing! Better than we've ever seen before. So please accept my heart felt thank you! Our customer base is really amazing.
Thanks Jim is there a price range the kit will come in at. I might have missed it if so I apologize.
 
I appreciate you sharing your perspective so openly, Jim. Sounds like you’re taking the best elements and refining them into something better still, which I suppose is exactly what good craftsmanship is all about.

In any case, given the overwhelming response, it looks like plenty of folks agree with your approach!

I guess I’m just a little sore that this next offering won’t be a flintlock, as percussion rifles have very little appeal to me (and the vast majority of folks in my shooting circle). I recognize we’re only a very small part of your customer base though.
 
I haven't shot a precussion gun since the 1970's and had hope that his was going to be a fullstock flint gun. But it wasn't,so I made my own. With that said, after seeing what Jim is putting out, I may just purchase one because I like the look of the gun and think it would look good on the rack. I am certain that it will be much easier to put together than the fullstock gun that I just built. Jim, you have spoiled me with your great products and customer service. I only wish your company had been around in the 70's.
 
... I don't drink the Hawken Kool-Aid. I really don't fully understand the widespread alure or fascination...
@James Kibler

Jim, I agree with you 100%, and will just say it was one of those one-time generational mass-hysteria phenomena that pop up. You would have to be an old man like me and a lot of the old geezers in here 🤣 to fully grasp it. It was "that movie", plain and simple. "That movie" was a sensation.
 
@James Kibler

Jim, I agree with you 100%, and will just say it was one of those one-time generational mass-hysteria phenomena that pop up. You would have to be an old man like me and a lot of the old geezers in here 🤣 to fully grasp it. It was "that movie", plain and simple. "That movie" was a sensation.
You are spot on. I remember gathering our little rondevous crowd to watch THAT MOVIE. That and The Mountain Men movie in 1980 . I went Hawken crazy. I bought a T/C kit in 1976 or so and then bought an Ithaca Hawken kit in 1977 which was "close enough" for a Hawken. I've always harbored an affection for Hawken rifles. It's probably why I like to see the little things that make a Hawken a Hawken but are unimportant to most other people.

I'm not a customer for Jim's new rifle since I'm too old and still have the Ithaca which serves my needs but I applaud his efforts to bring a quality kit to the market. It's great to see all of this excitement over a Hawken rifle too.
 
From the perspective of a previous high end custom gunbuilder, the design and workmanship of the vast majority of originals is pretty weak. So, why would I want to repeat what I see as shortcomings? What I've done is create a gun that has characteristics of many Hawken rifles and other guns from the same time period and generally similar geographic area in such a way that I am pleased. Really, this isn't any different than I've done on any of our other offerings as well! The only difference is these guns don't have the cult following. This is pretty much the approach many of the best custom builders today.

To be perfectly frank, I find many or most Hawken originals and contemporary recreations to be pretty awful. Sure, they have some neat characteristics, but as a whole I think they don't stand up well. I'm trying to change this.

Okay, enough pontificating! The response from this latest offering has been absolutely amazing! Better than we've ever seen before. So please accept my heart felt thank you! Our customer base is really amazing.


My one nit-pick concerns the breech/snail area. Most of the repops have the snail to far over the lockplate, your design shows this same flaw. The vast majority of the originals the outer end of the snail is nearly even with the outside of the lock. This puts the nipple closer to the bore for better ignition.
 
So I just measured this distance at .025". This is pretty small and you can't get too much less if you have a slight corner radius on the breech. The placement of the nipple is completely independent of this measurement as well.
 
Well said, IMHO. You have to think that as a business man, he see's an opportunity to produce a rifle that will appeal to a wider market (and one with a gapping hole in it at the moment.) While, I'm admittedly not so confined/ concerned of what is period correct, I do know that a nicely styled and precisely made kit to produce a beautiful and handy cap lock rifle will be welcomed by many. This will no doubt be a big seller for him once word gets out. I have my name in for one myself. Good news is that I'll likely have time to fit a Woodsrunner build in before the Hawken launches.
Fully agree. There is a long list of Hawken-type suppliers in the index of Bob Woodfill's book on the Hawken; if people don't like Jim's take on them they can research and make/buy/dream up any variety or type Hawken they wish. There's always going to be some nit-pickers! You are on the money!
 
Hawken rifles have always been my favorite style. I appreciate and own own several flintlocks, 2 Kibler offerings and can't say enough good about them. Assembling and doing mild carving made them mine.

I am very excited to get one when they are available. In 58 for me. It will go well with a GRRW Hawken I have.

The amount of work to design, program, and produce correctly all the components is amazing. Kudos to Jim as he does this. I am sure it will be a big seller. He deserves it. His ability in the latest video bringing all the design features together is impressive.

Any "small" change people dream up, like a flint version, would require a huge amount of redesign/rework/reprogramming to get right.

More power to Jim and his company.

Don
 
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