Kibler side effect?

[TDM]

This is my opinion solely. I am willing to wager that Pedersoli has an eye on Jim's operation for a couple of reasons. The first, it would reduce the manual labor required for their finished products. Reduced labor costs = increased profits. Secondly, it would reduce the complexity of their kit builds to increase sales versus, say Traditions or InvestArms.

Pedersoli has the technological prowess and engineers that could duplicate this in short order once the cooperate decision is made. As with anything, the hardest part is having the original idea. If you know that something has been done, the human mind will more easily duplicate it.

That would be something indeed if Pedersoli could produce their entire line of products to Jim’s standards.

 

[wiscoaster]

.... None of the Kibler kit assemblers graduated to expanding their skill sets or abilities. ...

Hmmmm, not sure what you intended to mean by that, and would have a minor disagreement at least in that assembling a Kibler kit was, for me, pretty much learning some new skill sets and abillities from scratch. It's one thing to have some skill and competence in run of the mill DIY home woodworking - picture frames and such - and another completely different skill set applied to a rifle stock that might come under the general heading of "woodworking" but really isn't. So, for me, a Kibler kit was definitely an "expanding" experience; glad of it, and planning to get another at some point.

OK, gotcha now (I think), you were referring to your club members, not Kibler kit builders in general?

 

[wiscoaster]

This is my opinion solely. I am willing to wager that Pedersoli has an eye on Jim's operation for a couple of reasons. ....

You mean as an acquisition?? Sheesh, I hope not.

If you just mean copying production methodology, they might, but I think their corporate culture and so their approach to their product is different and won't mesh.

 

[rich pierce]

Hmmmm, not sure what you intended to mean by that, and would have a minor disagreement at least in that assembling a Kibler kit was, for me, pretty much learning some new skill sets and abillities from scratch. It's one thing to have some skill and competence in run of the mill DIY home woodworking - picture frames and such - and another completely different skill set applied to a rifle stock that might come under the general heading of "woodworking" but really isn't. So, for me, a Kibler kit was definitely an "expanding" experience; glad of it, and planning to get another at some point.

OK, gotcha now (I think), you were referring to your club members, not Kibler kit builders in general?

I mean none of them graduated to building from scratch.

 

[Adam in WI]

I mean none of them graduated to building from scratch.

Unless one solely desires to learn the gun building craft, or want a much different style; why would they? When you can buy a kit from Jim that's almost all the way there, of good styling and correct architecture, for a minimal premium compared to a kit from Track or similar... He really did find a niche, didn't he?

For the cost of the kit, and the minimal skill required to get a great result; I'm a bit surprised if in the long run if even sales of completed rifles like Pedersoli's don't take a big dip.

Another thing to consider is that Kibler is a young company. Imagine in 10 to 15 years if they are able to put a few more machines online and expand their offerings to half a dozen or more different styles. This could be very interesting to follow.

 

[user 34300]

I doubt Pedersoli will offer high quality CNC made guns. Why? Because based on how they make their guns now, they don't not care about correct styling, build quality or reliability. They are more concerned about production numbers and lawyer proof design features. Since they stopped for covid they have not come back to make product that are as good as previously. I have read that their quality has slipped quite a bit recently.

 

[Rudyard]

Other than getting Pecatonica & Fort Hill stock blanks some times at F' ship all I made was from scratch Ime sure there is a place for Kibler type kits & Jim Chambers allway's was excellent in all he did .I've stocked in Beech .Jarra Kuarie ,'fruit trees '.Miro, Native' Birch' (A podocarp Beech) SA Pine. Some driftwood No idea what it was but came free . Mulberry, Walnut, English & Black Maples various .
All made stocks Woods Wood can't forge it melt it & its all different tree to tree,. You can't ride rough shod you have to follow where it leads or allows you to go. Got to love it Eh? !
Rudyard's Musing

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

Read this thread twice and I'm actually shaking my head. At the comments where you guys write like Pedersoli could learn how to do CNC work from Kibler.
Now that's funny!

How many manufacturers do you all think that take up an entire city block with automated equipment and machinery?!
Do you think Kibler's quality would be where it's at today if he were turning out 500 kits per week?
Some years ago I toured the Gunlock furniture in Wayland New York.
You ain't seen wood carving by machines until you toured a big factory.
Some of you guys better go over on YouTube and look up CNC machining stocks & actions, ECT.

 

[smoothshooter]

Yep. Jim posted here a few days ago that the reason for the Fowler delay was that they were selling so many current kits that they’re swamped. It’s good to know that there’s such a strong demand out there.

I hope there is another trusted family member or another trusted and skilled person who can take over if something happens to Kibler and he can’t work any more. He seems to have set up the near-perfect business model for that area of interest. I don’t know Jim personally, but in watching his videos it's apparent to me that he is under incredible stress, though the signs are pretty subtle. I have prayed for him to be able to handle all that and not let it eat him alive, as I have I have seen happen to other small business entrepreneurs.
Without taking away anything from all the other skilled artisans and retailers in our hobby that promote our sport, Kibler Longrifles is the best thing to hit the traditional muzzleloading industry in decades.

 

[TDM]

I hope there is another trusted family member or another trusted and skilled person who can take over if something happens to Kibler and he can’t work any more. He seems to have set up the near-perfect business model for that area of interest. I don’t know Jim personally, but in watching his videos it's apparent to me that he is under incredible stress, though the signs are pretty subtle. I have prayed for him to be able to handle all that and not let it eat him alive, as I have I have seen happen to other small business entrepreneurs.
Without taking away anything from all the other skilled artisans and retailers in our hobby that promote our sport, Kibler Longrifles is the best thing to hit the traditional muzzleloading industry in decades.

Agree. Luckily he’s a young man.

 

[wganz]

You mean as an acquisition?? Sheesh, I hope not.

If you just mean copying production methodology, they might, but I think their corporate culture and so their approach to their product is different and won't mesh.

No where was acquisition mentioned in my post, the inference was Pedersoli duplicating/reverse engineering Jim’s processes to reduce their labor costs.

 

[rich pierce]

Unless one solely desires to learn the gun building craft, or want a much different style; why would they? When you can buy a kit from Jim that's almost all the way there, of good styling and correct architecture, for a minimal premium compared to a kit from Track or similar... He really did find a niche, didn't he?

For the cost of the kit, and the minimal skill required to get a great result; I'm a bit surprised if in the long run if even sales of completed rifles like Pedersoli's don't take a big dip.

Another thing to consider is that Kibler is a young company. Imagine in 10 to 15 years if they are able to put a few more machines online and expand their offerings to half a dozen or more different styles. This could be very interesting to follow.

Why would they? Because they are students of originals and want to own a gun that is a close copy of this, or that, or the other thing. And like to tie their own flies, make as much of their gear as they can, and so on. And can do it for $1000 by doing it themselves.

I’ve never been a factory gun guy, wanting one just like hundreds or thousands of others out there.

I get it why others find the Kibler guns wonderful to assemble and own. Just not my thing, despite the extreme high quality and outstanding design. I just carved a Woodsrunner for a blind friend. Did it as a favor but my heart wasn’t in it. Each to their own. We are in this for fun and excitement. What’s fun and exciting for Johnny may be a yawner for Jerry, and vice versa.

 

[wiscoaster]

No where was acquisition mentioned in my post, the inference was Pedersoli duplicating/reverse engineering Jim’s processes to reduce their labor costs.

Well, true, but:

.... Pedersoli has an eye on Jim's operation for a couple of reasons. ....

This is typical corporate talk for eyeing takeover targets. I'm an investor. I know how these things go. That's the viewpoint for my response.

The typical corporate action for duplicating or overcoming a competitor's success, and especially when that success is due to better technologies, better processes, and/or better people, and especially people with knowledge and expertise they want, is simply to make an offer that's too good to refuse, then buy the company, appropriate its people, technology, processes and physical plant, then let go its best people with non-compete agreements, sell off the physical assets, and voila - no more competition and a better product under your own brand. Then, of course, they can charge whatever the market will let them get away with. Pay off the debt incurred with the added profit margin. It's how capitalism works. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Seen it happen multiple times in the corporate world and been both rewarded and burned as a shareholder in the resulting fallout.

IMO Kibler Longrifles being bought out and no longer a going concern in the ML kit build world would certainly be for the worse. You listening, Jim Kibler?

 

[painter]

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I'm just a lowly painter, and don't know Jim's exit strategy, but...and a huge but...I believe he does this because he loves it, and don't believe he's a sellout. Maybe in the distant future if his son has no interest in the business he'll sell, but I don't see it happening anytime in the near future.

To the poster that commented on him being stressed out...I don't see that either. I see a guy that works his a$$ off to be productive and profitable. He might be tired, but I'm not seeing stress.

I'm likely wrong...just ask any of my wives, past or current.

 

[wiscoaster]

.... He might be tired, but I'm not seeing stress.

In one of his videos he's wearing a monogramed t-shirt that implies he suffers from gout. That's a particularly painful and fatiguing ailment, if that's what the t-shirt rightly implied.

 

[painter]

In one of his videos he's wearing a monogramed t-shirt that implies he suffers from gout. That's a particularly painful and fatiguing ailment, if that's what the t-shirt rightly implied.

If you watch the whole video he states he doesn't have gout...he just likes the shirt. I have gout, and it's easily manageable.

 

[painter]

I'd add, of course there's stress owning, and operating, any business but that's not the issue IMO.

 

[DrLaw]

I have built two Kibler guns. On the first, a Southern Mountain, I put a minimum of carving decoration on the cheek-piece. On the second, a Woodsrunner, I carved a maple leaf, a snake on the patchbox, a lily, two lines along the stock, and two scroll-y things on the cheek-piece side. I would not have tried that without the help from the videos as I am a tool-klutz. For that reason, I like the idea of the Kibler's over the other not-as-built-up kits. Not being a woodworker, machinist, iron or brass worker, they are right up my ability alley. I wish when I was younger I would have learned those things, but the opportunity did not arise and I have gotten too old to start over.
I think Mr. Kibler came along with the right ideas at the right time and has really put new life into the black powder Flintlock community. I am thankful for his coming along with his ideas on how to do things. So far, three kits with all sorts of variations in wood and caliber. I can't beef about that, at all.

The Doc is out now.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Kibler,s Transition is like going from Pig Iron era to Coked Steel....

 

[smoothshooter]

Well, true, but:

This is typical corporate talk for eyeing takeover targets. I'm an investor. I know how these things go. That's the viewpoint for my response.

The typical corporate action for duplicating or overcoming a competitor's success, and especially when that success is due to better technologies, better processes, and/or better people, and especially people with knowledge and expertise they want, is simply to make an offer that's too good to refuse, then buy the company, appropriate its people, technology, processes and physical plant, then let go its best people with non-compete agreements, sell off the physical assets, and voila - no more competition and a better product under your own brand. Then, of course, they can charge whatever the market will let them get away with. Pay off the debt incurred with the added profit margin. It's how capitalism works. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Seen it happen multiple times in the corporate world and been both rewarded and burned as a shareholder in the resulting fallout.

IMO Kibler Longrifles being bought out and no longer a going concern in the ML kit build world would certainly be for the worse. You listening, Jim Kibler?

Even though I am familiar with the business practices you described above, I found your post to be quite thought-provoking.