Kibler vs. TVM.

[Mike in FL]

No opinion on who how why where and what of the cracked stock saga. I will say this very thing is why I ordered an IN THE WHITE. If anyone here would crack a stock, drill a crooked hole or drop a thin walled barrel He is now typing. I spent ALOT of money to have the rifle built by (I was told Jim himself). I have no regrets that I dropped the stock, cracked the stock, bent the pin or drilled a hole crooked. My only regret is that it was soooo dang nice just as it arrved that I STILL AM AFRAID TO FINISH IT! But I will. I bought a cheapo Traditions KY kit to butcher and get my confidence up. I used to do OK on wood work in HS days but then again I preformed a bit better in many of lifes aspects 40 years ago! My stock is plain maple and appears PLAIN. But I am betting when I do stain it it will pop and I may cry! Couldn't have been happeir with the purchase and the next will be the woodsrunner. Will see how much confinece gets rstored before I see if Jim has to build it again or if I feel I can do it! BTW with all the tools I didnt have to buy and all the time I didnt have to spend cleaning a place to work in the garage I more than paid for the IN THE WHITE Oh, and after a several posts with the cherry stock that one will be cherry!!

Wish I had paid for in the white. Nothing wrong with the kit; just my ineptness. But I've gone pretty far with it, learning as I go. I reckon I will go ahead. Slowly, very slowly. I've made some small mistakes, but nothing that will show on the finished rifle, unless I screw up further. Finished the ramrod pipes today. Darkness arrived before I could drill the ramrod tip. The part I dread is drilling out the flash hole. If I mess that up I'm screwed. But Jim has a tiny hole to tell me where to start. I would not have progressed this far if not for Jim's videos and all the help here. My thanks to all.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Drilling out the flash hole????

 

[RMH]

The part I dread is drilling out the flash hole

I have built a Kibler SMR and Woodsrunner. Both of them came with the flash hole ready to go. Inserts were installed and flash holes drilled to size. Don't go messing around with the flash hole, it is done already!

 

[Joemolf]

I finished putting together a Woodsrunner this past week. Perfect timing, as the fire restrictions were lifted last Friday. At 50 yards, it didn't take much fiddling around to get a 1.5" group with 70 gr. 3f Schutzen, .526 RB, and pocket drill patch lubed with Moose Milk. No swabbing needed to work up the load and get it sighted in. I had to take the front sight down quite a bit to get it to shoot two inches high at 50 yards.

I did cone the barrel, and I enlarged the lock inlet around .020-.025" for easier removal. It was awful tight as it came, and in wet weather I figured that could cause some problems. I like a lock to fall out of the inlet when the bolts are removed, the rifle turned over and given a bump with my fist.

I did need to do a bit of work on the trigger plate and mortise, as I felt a slight bit of drag as it came. I'll see if I need to loosen it more after shooting on a few rainy days. We shoot year around, rain, snow or sun.

If there was one thing I would change, would be a slightly larger diameter stock pins.

All in all, these guns are certainly as represented, with excellent customer service.

I went to 5/56 dowels from mcmaster make sure they are hardened and annealed

 

[Joemolf]

I went to 5/56 dowels from mcmaster make sure they are hardened and annealed

5/64 I meant

 

[waksupi]

Wish I had paid for in the white. Nothing wrong with the kit; just my ineptness. But I've gone pretty far with it, learning as I go. I reckon I will go ahead. Slowly, very slowly. I've made some small mistakes, but nothing that will show on the finished rifle, unless I screw up further. Finished the ramrod pipes today. Darkness arrived before I could drill the ramrod tip. The part I dread is drilling out the flash hole. If I mess that up I'm screwed. But Jim has a tiny hole to tell me where to start. I would not have progressed this far if not for Jim's videos and all the help here. My thanks to all.

No need to do that, I did not have a single miss fire as it is. I don't know why everyone thinks they need to drill out a vent.

 

[Mike in FL]

Not sure I was clear. As is, there is no way to insert a liner. Are we saying I don't need one? The tiny hole in the barrel is sufficient? And is this why the kit comes with the drill bit adapter? See pics. I reckon I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm just now starting ster 4.

 

[Mike in FL]

And it looks to me like the hole is too low or the pan too high.

 

[azmntman]

OMHO looks like the touch hole is perfectly positioned.

 

[RMH]

The adapter is for the barrel and ramrod pipe pins. The touch hole liner is in and drilled already. When you blue or brown the barrel you will see that the liner is stainless steel. The touch hole is done and it's position is just fine.

 

[user 34300]

We are overthinking this.

There is no touch hole to drill. The liner is already installed for you. Drilling holes in tabs and underlugs was required on the older kits, I think the modern ones no longer require it.

Using larger pins? Why? All the holes in the wood and steel are already done for the supplied 1/16" hard steel pins. To avoid mucking up the holes in the wood make the pins shorter than the hole. Round off both ends. Your little punch will be in and guided by the hole before you tap anything.

I have extra assembly pins. The ends are tapered and polished. The other end is bent to an L-shape for too free insertion and removal.

Aside from some possible touch up of inletting the Kilber rifles go together like legos. My last one was a Woodsrunner. The only inletting to be adjusted was in the lock recess. A little spotting stuff and a few minuets was all that was required.

 

[sturmkatze]

The adapter is for the barrel and ramrod pipe pins. The touch hole liner is in and drilled already. When you blue or brown the barrel you will see that the liner is stainless steel. The touch hole is done and its position is just fine.

@Mike in FL as RMH says, it’s done. Look carefully at your photo and you can see the ghost of the touch hole liner. Already done. Now, you’r your day is better

 

[45man]

I have built many rifles from planks, 86 now and the skill has departed. But my friends, Joe and Pete have bought many kits from Jim. I have never seen such workmanship in my life and want one of my own but SS and Bidenomics is killing us.
I have built many modern stocks from scratch and a few stocks and forearms for side by side shotguns too. Wood will drive a guy nuts and be sure Jim did not send a cracked stock.
When a friend brings an 03-A3 an a $300 hunk of wood over and wants a custom, checkered stock, I stared at it a month before picking up tools. Came out perfect. I wish age never creeps up on us the way it does but we have memories and what we did will live on.

 

[TDM]

@Mike in FL, please listen to the above advice given. @Scota@4570 sums it up well.

 

[Mike in FL]

Wow. I'm wondering what it might be that you guys DON'T know. That is a huge relief to know the liner is already in. Thanks so much. I got another question but will ask in a new post. Again, THANK YOU!

 

[Joemolf]

Not sure I was clear. As is, there is no way to insert a liner. Are we saying I don't need one? The tiny hole in the barrel is sufficient? And is this why the kit comes with the drill bit adapter? See pics. I reckon I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm just now starting ster 4.

Mike some of Jim’s videos may show steps that are no longer necessary as they address the older colonial and older SMR may require drilling the touch hole. They keep making things easier at his factory! The touch hole being done for you!

 

[Joemolf]

Remember these stocks are precision machined! So the inlets as noted in an earlier post may be a little tight. It’s okay IMO to carefully shave a little off to get a better fit. That’s where a small chisel may help. I think they list some tools you might need but not many

 

[Jim in San Diego]

I have a 50 cal Late Lancaster made by TVM about five years ago and I love it!

It’s a work of art and very accurate!

I went to order a smaller bore southern from them last year and the lady I had worked with before waved me off. She said how their lead times and cost were way up and they couldn’t get all the parts they used to.

Maybe their operation has had trouble and she didn’t want me to be disappointed?

When I’m ready, I’ll get a SMR from Kibler. 1/2 the cost and the lead time is up to me and my free time.

 

[cjsoccer3]

Based on the value and quality Jim Kibler offers, I was all set to get a Woodsrunner even though I prefer a barrel longer than 39". All the reviews and videos of building of a Kibler is proof enough they are likely the best deal for an historically correct and gorgeous rifle. I am not at all handy. I mean NOT AT ALL. So I was going to get an "in the white" kit.
Then I happened to see that TVM will make a gun for me completely finished with Siler lock and name brand barrel, custom length and swamped, choice of hardware. Basic Southern has 36 or 42" barrel. The 42 is more aesthetically pleasing at least to me, but 44 would be even prettier, which they offer at extra cost. Choice of wood. Just comparing their basic Southern plain maple or walnut or late PA with Jimr's Woodsrunner or Colonial, a finished TVM rifle is just a tad more money with more possibility to upgrade.
What would you do? Take a look at Tenn Valley Mfg if you haven't seen them. U had one many years agi in .36. The Poor Boy model, no entry thimble, very plain wood, no toe plate. But looked good because of the longer barrel.
All I have now is a Pedersoli GPR flinter. It is so very heavy and doesn't have the graceful lines of a longrifle.

TVM just sold me a gun with a walnut stock for an upcharge, but it came with a stock repair, crooked front sight, and other issues.

I’d run from TVM. It’s not what it used to be. The website admittedly looks nice and the rifle designs are cool, but $2k for cracked stocks and crooked sights isn’t the tree to be barking up.

Thread on my rifle: Should I reach out to builder or adjust at home? Gap between lock and barrel

 

[Joemolf]

Not sure I was clear. As is, there is no way to insert a liner. Are we saying I don't need one? The tiny hole in the barrel is sufficient? And is this why the kit comes with the drill bit adapter? See pics. I reckon I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm just now starting ster 4.

Mike That little drill bushing if you’re not clear is for drilling the barrel tabs and the trigger guard hold down pins. With the barrel clamped in place (use a clamp near each tab location). Insert the guide bushing into the 1/16 diameter hole in the stock; (i’d work from the left) butting against the barrel tab. using the smaller of the two bits supplied carefully and slowly drill the pilot hole in the barrel tab. One tab at a time. Remove the bushing and then using the 1/16 bit again slowly and carefully drill the barrel tab to final size 1/16 inch. Cut yourself a pin a 1/2 inch or so oversize of the stock round the tip for ease of alignment and insert the pin from the left side into the stock through the barrel tab. Tap in gently with a small hammer. Repeat for the remaining two barrel tabs. That little bushing will help the novice drill perfect holes without oblonging the predrilled holes in the stock. You use this shop aid to drill the trigger guard holes also. Easy right? Just go slow and think about what you’re doing. When you have all three holes drilled slot the barrel tabs now or at a later time but be sure to slot them using a jeweler saw. Do not slot trigger guard holes.