kit or no kit?

[Steven.Driediger]

I am very interested in building my own muzzleloader (probably a flintlock smoothbore). My biggest problem is coming up with funds for a kit. (Another concern I have with a kit is that anything that I might be able to afford would probably not be of great quality - and I understand that especially with a flinter the quality of the lock is of extreme importance.) I am contemplating buying the parts one at a time as I have money for them and taking what will probably be a really long time to finish the thing. I would not be buying a pre-carved/inlet stock, though, as I have access to good wood to carve my own. To add to the complexity of the situation, I have almost no experience with muzzleloaders in any capacity.
I am faily sure, though, that if I can get my hands on some decent resources ("how-to" books and so on) and I go really slow with the process I can eventually come up with something that will work out reasonably well for me. What do you guys with some experience think of this approach?

 

[CrackStock]

The problem with this particular method is that your shipping costs will remove any savings from the project. Save up and then order a quality kit.

I might purchase the barrel and lock separately, but the rest I would order as a kit.

I also would not skimp on the lock. Buy the best that you can find and skimp elsewhere. Going cheap in this area up front costs a lot later.

Just my thoughts,

CS

 

[Legionair]

I agree with Crackstock... If you save up and get a quality kit from a good supplier, some of the precision stuff could be done ahead of time...

(I know I'd be apprehensive about soldering or brazing on my new barrel).


Just an opinion...

Legion

 

[Old40Rod]

My advice? Start by going to Track of the Wolf's website and spend about 6 hours browsing their finished rifles, kits and parts (particularly the parts). You don't have to order from them, but their website is an excellent info resource, nice photos of parts, etc. Then order the book Gunsmiths of Grenville County and give it a thorough read through. It has much more info that you will likely use on a first build, but its all there if you need it.

Then, after you are yards smarter, start looking for the parts and materials you will need.

There are several parts suppliers for everything you will need. A few of my favorites are:

Muzzleloader Builders Supply[url] http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/[/url]

Pecatonica River[url] http://www.longrifles-pr.com/[/url]

Track of the Wolf[url] http://www.trackofthewolf.com/[/url]

There are others also.

 

[chuck-ia]

well, if you have the wood, the first thing you need to buy is a barrel. I see Track of the Wolf has smooth bore barrels for 169.00, don't know the quality of the barrel though, could go with a colerain for a bit more, or a long hammock, while you are inletting the barrel you can be saving up for a quality lock. chuck-ia

 

[Birddog6]

Well, I don't mean to be rude or abrupt, you you are stepping in way over your head. Wood or not, having never done anything in ML'ing at all, you have no idea of what you are doing, so go with a "Parts set" from Tip Curtis, TOW, Pecatonica, Jim Chambers Flintloskc, Wayne Dunlap, etc. It will be a real eye opener for ya as there is ALLOT to learn from building one from a parts set & just having wood is not the place to start.

Kinda like saying, "I have a 427 engine block, I am gonna build a Rail Dragster or a Funny Car". You may build one & if it runs it will probably never make it down the .... Just way mjore involved that meets the eye......

Be better off to start with a parts set, build one & then if you get that built right, step it up to the next level.

Save up, buy it all at one place & build it. That way you know ALL of the parts are right, all of them ar for what you are building & etc. Also I suggest if you are building a flintlock, go with a Chambers lock regardless of what ya build. Lifetime Qarranty on the lock & they are great locks........ Everything else I have used has been a headache to get to perform reliably & correctly.



:thumbsup:

 

[J.D.]

Birddog6 is dead on in his advice. Not to mention how many hand tools do you have?

You will spend a ton of money on tools. Books, how-to videos, chisels, scrapers, files, rasps, hack saw, drill and drillbits, and all of the other tools and sundry items needed to build a rifle. And, if you don't know what you are doing with those tools, the $800 or so spent on parts to build your own, not counting cost of tools, you very likely will end up with a rifle worth $300.

Tip Curtis has already been mentioned. Early Rustic might have something in an in-the-white gun that you can finish yourself. Request that your "kit" be equipped with a Chambers lock, and you will end up with a quality gun.
[url] http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/pricesanddescriptions.htm[/url]

 

[Steven.Driediger]

I am definitely in way over my head - i'll accept that. One thing I like about projects like this is that they force me to learn an awful lot. I'm a reasonably intelligent fellow and can follow instructions - I've learned an awful lot already from this website and others (although I should probably assume that I know less than I think I do). One more question I do have, though: if for some reason my first attempt didn't work out right, could I not still use all the same parts (at least the expensive ones) on a new piece of wood for a second attempt?

 

[ChrisPer]

Don't get too carried away with the above, if you take your time its possible do it yourself from plans or photos. Its just a long and miserable learning curve.

I have spent a number of years thinking, made my first cut only yesterday on a first project that isn't available in a kit. I got inspired by the movie 'The World's Fastest Indian' to actually tackle my dream project.

If you want to make the parts of the lock yourself, steel scraps are free in the auto wrecker yard. I met a guy with a rack of half a dozen curious rifles, and he built them from photos in Petersen's 'The Great Guns', filing and hacksawing on a vise mounted on the bullbar of his 4WD while working in the bush.

Leaf springs from cars or trucks are thick stock, and offcuts are free. One machinist told me his son built a Kentucky rifle barrel by draw filing flats on a Landrover steering column, and rifled it by hand.

A 4" angle grinder with 1mm thick disks saves a lot of exhausting hacksawing.

The builders here are an amazing bunch, and give good advice. If you have what it takes, do it the way YOU want. Or save up and get a kit because the first one you build will be easier, cheaper, quicker and better quality.

 

[Birddog6]

Unless you do special mods to the lock & barrel, you can reuse them on numerous stocks. Lots of times the trim & trigger can be reused also, just depends on the mods done to them upon installation. If you stay the normal, they could be reused on many stocks of a particular school of rifle.

If you are determined to undertake this from a blank, get the book "The Gunsmiths of Grenville County" and read it thru several times. (It is WELL worth the investment) Also order a set of plans for the rifle you want to build & study those so you can actually See what goes where exactly (dimensionally) and etc., and also the Tracks plans will have disectional dimensions & etc. (We are talking ? $10-12 here, so also a worth investment for a newbie)

Now I will be the first to tell ya, building a rifle is not rocket science, for if it was I dang sure would have never built any. However, on the other hand, you can be the sharpest tack in the box & still take $800. worth of parts & end up with a $200 worth of rifle......... :grin:
I have worked with allot of engineers in the past 35 years, and things on paper just look fabulous but lots of times they just don't work on the machines....... Same thing here...... Getting it from the book to the rifle is not as easy as it appears sometimes on paper. And sheer determination is the only thing that got me from a $119 CVA kit in 1978 to some pretty decent rifles now, just doing it over & over & over & trying to improve every time, trying to do things a lil dif., a lil better, a lil cleaner lines & work, etc.

Now you may be that one in a million feller that can just grab something/anything & build it & it be Correct & work & all of that, cause I know a guy that is like that. (The only guy I ever met like that too) But my guess is you ain't gonna cross this creek in just one leap, if ya get my drift. Time, practice, & repetition will be your greatest helper in this adventure.

Good Luck !

:thumbsup:

 

[MSW]

well, Todd, welcome to the curious world of tinkerers and rock bangers. my two cents worth:

save up your money and get a parts kit all at once. i've gone both ways and whatever you save by doing it one- at- a- time will be eaten up in shipping costs.

you don't want a Chambers lock- you need one. they are great, especially for a first build, because they are all that they're claimed to be and more, and it's one less thing you might have to worry about down the road. you do, after all, want to launch some lead at the end of this project.

if you don't already have Peter Alexander's book, The Gunsmith of Grenville County, i recommend it to your use if only for the reason that the cost of its purchase will be amortized the very first time you don't ruin and expensive part. (of course, you won't realize this, or at least i didn't, when you do it, because you'll have read the book and you'll know not to do the bad thing that would have ruined the part had you not read the book). ... and that doesn't even begin to cover the cost of you time and the frustration of having to something over...

additionally, doing a stock from a blank can be rather daunting. if you don't have any woodworking experience, it's downright overwhelming.

you should also take a look at any number of videos which can be rented from technicalvideorental dot com, or purchased from the Chambers website or from Track of the Wolf.

when the collection of pieces arrives, "be ye not afraid." go slow, sneak up on it, and keep your chisels razor sharp. good luck!

msw

 

[Vaino]

Wait and buy a good kit.....there's enough challenge in a kit seeing you've never built a MLer. Most kits have the architecture established and provide the proper components which will give you an education for your next build which, depending on your skills and perseverence, might just be a "scratch build". Don't under estimate the difficulty factor of the "kits" offered by TOW, Dunlap, Pecatonica, Chambers etc. because as stated previously, these $800 "kits" can quite easily become $300 guns. My first MLer rifle of any kind was a "scratch build" and was a disaster seeing the maple stock ended up as kindling, but an education it was. The second "scratch built" attempt { 1981 } is presently my squirrel rifle and although every time I look at it, the thought arises to "make it right", I'm not going to change the many errors that my "education" has made me aware of. It "sits" on the wall rack w/ the latest builds and although it's the "ugly duckling", it is still my "first".......Fred

 

[Chaplain Dan]

Friend ...Save up and get your self a good Kit if that is what you want to Do if it is a cheap kit you will never be satisfied with it and it won't fit together right I suggest looking in Carbellas they have some very good rifles at a good price...good luck :grin: Walks with Eagles

 

[Steven.Driediger]

thanks for your input - and everybody else's. To clear up one misconception, I'm not trying to save money by buying components one at a time: I would like to get started on the project without having to have the money to buy it all at once. If I wait until I have the money for the whole kit, it'll probably never happen. If I buy parts one (or only a few) at a time, I know that it will be a while before I can get more parts and it should be easier to take things slower since I can't rush completing the thing anyway. I do have some experience with woodworking (I work in a woodworking shop/mill), so that part of things doesn't scare me, and I have access to many tools. Too many people have suggested "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" for me to ignore, and reading it should help to pass the next six to eight months while I continue to wait for my maple to properly cure and dry.
I hope none of you feel like I am ignoring your sound advice: I would love to get a kit, and if I find myself with the resources to purchase one I will definitely go in that direction. If not, however, I would rather do something that takes way too long and doesn't turn out exactly right than sit around and do nothing and wonder how it might have all turned out ....

 

[CrackStock]

Todd,

This is your rifle project and it needs to please only you.

We are tossing out thoughts in order to help you as you ask questions and provide information. I suspect that none of us has emotional investment beyond assisting you by giving out experiences and knowledge.

Three books to consider.

Recreating the American Lonrifle by Buchele, Shumway and Alexander

Gunsmith of Grenville County by Alexander

The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle by Dixon, Ehrig and Miller

All are good.

I would begin this project with a goal of learning about styles of guns that interest me. Does a period of time, location or particular style capture my interest?

I would then study what the major points of that gun are and begin gathering correct components centered around a very good lock and good barrel. The wood is already aging (Hopefully then grain ends are painted to prevent checking), so that part is covered for now.

After reading how, I would pruchase needed tools and make attempts to create some parts and order the other parts as a group in order to save money on shipping.

I wish you well.

CS

 

[Shelby Skinner]

More than a few builders got started with nothing more than a couple of files, hacksaws, a few chisels etc. You really only need to buy a lock and a barrel as you can fabricate everything else yourself with commonly available metal from scrap or from a source like Lowes/Home Depot. BUT, the learning curve is very steep here and it helps to have someone who knows what they are doing to coach you along in the process. If you really are intent on building a gun on the cheap you can buy a straight octagon barrel for about $110 and a great lock for about $120 and be on your way. Sawing out your stock and intletting a straight barrel will be a challenge enough...let alone tryng a swamped or octagon to round barrel. If you want a brass triggerguard and buttplate you can save alot of money and buy sand cast (more period correct to boot) triggerguards and buttplates for about $10-15 each....not a lot of dough. You'll need a tang bolt and a couple of lock bolts but everything else can be made from scrap or stock metal for very little $$$.

There are a lot of advantages to building a rifle from a blank instead of a pre-carved/pre-inlet stock. Quite literally you could build an awesome rifle with less than $300 in materials. BUT--a lot of work.

Just take your time and READ AND STUDY.... The Gunsmith of Greenville County is a good book as is "Recreating the American Longrifle"

 

[khwils]

No offense to anyone but I think everyone is missing some key points here that he stated and implied. He is not trying to save money over the next two years(or however long) to buy a complete kit at once. He wants to purchase a couple of parts in 8 or 9 months to start on the piece of wood he has drying. Maybe even start on the parts before the wood is dry, he wants to start on it soon. He also wants to use his own wood to save money and also because he has unlimited access to woodworking tools and experience. He works at a woodworking shop/mill where I assume he got the wood for free! at this point I would have more than one piece of wood drying just in case. Crackstock gave some good advise on a couple of other books to purchase, I have all three and have read all three - very helpful. One of them also comes with the drawings/plans for a Kentucky rifle, I don't remember which. One other option would be the Trade Gun Sketch book by Hanson, it also comes with 3 - 4 complete drawing of trade guns and instructions on building them. The Trade guns have less inletting and all of the furniture can be made with flat scrap metal. But you should probably use Walnut for the trade gun. If you have maple which I believe you said you have you could use the Kentucky plans that come with the book and make a plain rifle making most of your own furniture as well. you would only have to buy a barrel, lock and triggerguard. Sights can be made from square steel stock or bought for less than $10. Ramrod pipes can be made by wrapping thin metal around an appropriate size drill bit and soldered or bought for less than $10. Barrel tennons can also be bent from thin metal and soldered. Trigger can be made by peening the edge of 1/8 steel stock and filed to shape or bought for less than $10. Not hard, just time consuming but I thought it was kind of fun making my own furniture. The point I'm trying to get at is that most of the parts are not rocket science to make with simple hand tools and done one at a time. The hard part that I hear the "pros" say is the architecture of the particular rifle. I also hear the "pros" say they prefer to start from a blank because most kits miss the true architecture as well. The preinlet stocks leave enough "extra" wood on them to get us newbies in trouble anyway. That being said he can build a gun from a blank and drawings and probably miss the true architecture of his first rifle or purchase a preinlet stock and probably miss the true architecture of his first rifle!! :rotf: Don't get me wrong here, I'm still missing the true architecture of my first rifles also - like everyone else! My vote - use your piece of maple, buy the book with the plans and build a plain-jane Kentuky. Buy a straight GM barrel in the largest caliber for whatever barrel dimension you choose(to keep it lighter to balance) for $110. Buy the best lock you can find - this is the only thing everyone agrees on ever! Buy a Triggerguard for $15.00. Buy sights for $10 - I hate filing that much metal off of a piece of 1/2" square stock metal. Use a piece of leather for the Buttplate and add a toeplate to protect your toe. Make a couple of ramrod pipes and a trigger like I said above. Drill a hole in the side of the buttstock for grease and go shoot it! If that's what you want to do!! BUT - that's just my opinion :grin: Kurt/IL

 

[Vaino]

I'm not missing the point......he asked for opinions on his "plan" and for a first build, I simply don't think that's the way to go.....Fred

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Probably the least expensive quality smooth bore kit available is the Northwest Trade Gun kit from Track and some others. Cost would be something over $500.00 U.S. and it would be a good learning experience with a good chance that you would be pleased with the result. It is your gun and your choice, but building from a plank the first time is not the wisest way to go in my experience. The good news is that if you really ruin the stock, you can always get another piece of wood and try again. The metal bits will still be useable. No matter your choice, good luck, have fun and welcome to the world of flintlocks and black powder.