Knife steel material

[dsuursoo]

...i've never felt that, being a stock removal guy.

When it comes to recreating an 18th century persona, "stock removal" doesn't cut it. There's nothing like an forged blade.

To each his own. :v

true enough, though the stock removal method existed then, i'm sure.

but, as i'm not recreating a persona, it's not a factor for me.

and i'll keep my stances on forged blades to myself, haha.

i argue, it's a cost, effectiveness, and ability thing. it's going to be a lot easier for someone who knows nothing of metalwork to make a knife by stock removal(if your fittings and finish match the appearance of period items-as far as we know-, then you're set there insofar as anyone else is concerned), than by forging. it's simple truth. apprentices swung hammers to assist in forging for years to decades before they were given the permission to control the making of a knife, and along the way, they'd done a lot of the other jobs, the treating, sharpening, everything else.

i won't dispute the value of learning to use a hammer and anvil. but i will caution someone to go the easier route first, as it will teach skills needed for forging.

you're also pretty unlikely to blow anything up or set anything on fire with a belt grinder. they can be cheaper than forge setups, as well, even DIY ones.

 

[Nifeman]

...i've never felt that, being a stock removal guy.

When it comes to recreating an 18th century persona, "stock removal" doesn't cut it. There's nothing like an forged blade.

To each his own. :v

true enough, though the stock removal method existed then, i'm sure.

but, as i'm not recreating a persona, it's not a factor for me.

and i'll keep my stances on forged blades to myself, haha.

i argue, it's a cost, effectiveness, and ability thing. it's going to be a lot easier for someone who knows nothing of metalwork to make a knife by stock removal(if your fittings and finish match the appearance of period items-as far as we know-, then you're set there insofar as anyone else is concerned), than by forging. it's simple truth. apprentices swung hammers to assist in forging for years to decades before they were given the permission to control the making of a knife, and along the way, they'd done a lot of the other jobs, the treating, sharpening, everything else.

i won't dispute the value of learning to use a hammer and anvil. but i will caution someone to go the easier route first, as it will teach skills needed for forging.

you're also pretty unlikely to blow anything up or set anything on fire with a belt grinder. they can be cheaper than forge setups, as well, even DIY ones.

I beg to differ about the cheaper way to go. Being a Neo-Tribal bladesmith, you can't get much cheaper than a hole in the ground filled with charcoal and a used hair dryer for your air source. Nowadays, I do some stock removal and use a gas forge when I forge, but there aint no better feeling than doin it like they did 1000 yrs. ago...

 

[fatboy]

What Nifeman says is very true. If you make yourself a box bellows or use the hot air from your know it all boss it can get real cheap

 

[dsuursoo]

...i've never felt that, being a stock removal guy.

When it comes to recreating an 18th century persona, "stock removal" doesn't cut it. There's nothing like an forged blade.

To each his own. :v

true enough, though the stock removal method existed then, i'm sure.

but, as i'm not recreating a persona, it's not a factor for me.

and i'll keep my stances on forged blades to myself, haha.

i argue, it's a cost, effectiveness, and ability thing. it's going to be a lot easier for someone who knows nothing of metalwork to make a knife by stock removal(if your fittings and finish match the appearance of period items-as far as we know-, then you're set there insofar as anyone else is concerned), than by forging. it's simple truth. apprentices swung hammers to assist in forging for years to decades before they were given the permission to control the making of a knife, and along the way, they'd done a lot of the other jobs, the treating, sharpening, everything else.

i won't dispute the value of learning to use a hammer and anvil. but i will caution someone to go the easier route first, as it will teach skills needed for forging.

you're also pretty unlikely to blow anything up or set anything on fire with a belt grinder. they can be cheaper than forge setups, as well, even DIY ones.

I beg to differ about the cheaper way to go. Being a Neo-Tribal bladesmith, you can't get much cheaper than a hole in the ground filled with charcoal and a used hair dryer for your air source. Nowadays, I do some stock removal and use a gas forge when I forge, but there aint no better feeling than doin it like they did 1000 yrs. ago...

and if our friend lives in an apartment? the grinder is far more practical then.

and considering that you'd need lump charcoal, which is currently considered a 'specialty' charcoal and costs more, it's still not cheap.

i take it you're from the 'all you need is charcoal and some old motor oil to quench' camp?

 

[anvil1231]

...i've never felt that, being a stock removal guy.

When it comes to recreating an 18th century persona, "stock removal" doesn't cut it. There's nothing like an forged blade.

To each his own. :v

true enough, though the stock removal method existed then, i'm sure.

but, as i'm not recreating a persona, it's not a factor for me.

and i'll keep my stances on forged blades to myself, haha.

i argue, it's a cost, effectiveness, and ability thing. it's going to be a lot easier for someone who knows nothing of metalwork to make a knife by stock removal(if your fittings and finish match the appearance of period items-as far as we know-, then you're set there insofar as anyone else is concerned), than by forging. it's simple truth. apprentices swung hammers to assist in forging for years to decades before they were given the permission to control the making of a knife, and along the way, they'd done a lot of the other jobs, the treating, sharpening, everything else.

i won't dispute the value of learning to use a hammer and anvil. but i will caution someone to go the easier route first, as it will teach skills needed for forging.

you're also pretty unlikely to blow anything up or set anything on fire with a belt grinder. they can be cheaper than forge setups, as well, even DIY ones.

I beg to differ about the cheaper way to go. Being a Neo-Tribal bladesmith, you can't get much cheaper than a hole in the ground filled with charcoal and a used hair dryer for your air source. Nowadays, I do some stock removal and use a gas forge when I forge, but there aint no better feeling than doin it like they did 1000 yrs. ago...

and if our friend lives in an apartment? the grinder is far more practical then.

and considering that you'd need lump charcoal, which is currently considered a 'specialty' charcoal and costs more, it's still not cheap.

i take it you're from the 'all you need is charcoal and some old motor oil to quench' camp?

Wood scraps are free and make good charcoal for forging.
There is nothing wrong with being from the charcoal and motor oil camp if the end results are the same

 

[dsuursoo]

Wood scraps are free and make good charcoal for forging.
There is nothing wrong with being from the charcoal and motor oil camp if the end results are the same

never said it was a bad thing. i'm a stock removal guy, just because it's simple, i only need three tools(my belt grinder and my handsaw and drill) since i send everything out to a professional for heat treatment. ultimately it's a preference thing.

 

[LRB]

Stuart, the problem with your post is that the results may be acceptable, but they won't be the same. Are the results you get the best you can do? If the HT isn't up to par, are you really doing your best? I don't know of any steel that can be heat treated to it's best potential with simple motor oil. Your work is outstanding, but the heat treat is the final touch on cutting tools. You are an artist in your field, but don't overlook the details, and please don't be brainwashed by the charcoal and motor oil bunch. You're too good at what you do to go that route. Pom-pom may be a tad short in what he is saying, but is he really wrong?

 

[anvil1231]

Wick, I realize I should have worded that a little differently. The point I was trying make is that the primative techniques have their place. That is the way I started out. I use gas for forging now and occasionally coal for just for fire welding in cutting bits. I heat treat alot more modern now than I did 20 years ago. Although a alot of my hawks and axes look like they were made and heat treated by primative ways. They're not. I will not be brain washed by those we speak of. I have came a long way and to much time studying heat treat manuals since the beginning. I do alot of stock removal now on knives and if it were possible I would do it on hawks.

Thank you for compliments and my hat goes off to you. You are truly the artist and craftman here. :hatsoff:

 

[LaBonte]

Wick and pom-pom: I know we'll probably never agree on what's "best". When I'm building knives and hawks in the 18th/19th century style I'm not just going for the "look", but I'm also trying to replicate what they used as closely as possible including materials, techniques, final fit and finish, and hardness - most period knives that have been tested are in the high 40's to mid 50's on the RC scale, unlike the hard blades of modern day which are in the upper 50's and low 60's, so for me and others I know "best" has to do more than with the ultimate heat treat wear, etc.
IMO - there's nothing "wrong" with using modern alloy steels, grinders, heat treat ovens, etc. but you're ending with a product whose capabilities are far beyond those used by our forefathers and for some that's a big part of the purpose - to experience life as closely as possible to our ancestors even in the little things - for me it isn't just about having the ultimate knife in terms of wear, sharpness, etc. I did that when making modern knives many years ago - at one time I had all the most modern equipment including heat treat ovens, used the ultimate steels of the day, read the manuals and did the scientific testing, etc., but since the mid-1970's I have chosen to build period knives in as many wasy possible as closely as to what was used "then" - for me, and many others I know, it's not just the outward appearance that counts......
From my point of view it's kind of like the folks who prefer to use the "fake" powders when the real thing is available or the "inliners" most of whom will never understand the difference and to whom I hold no grudge except when they try to prevent me from doing it the "traditional" way......
Frankly I've never understood the "battle" between the forgers and the stock removers, which has been going on since I can remember - we're all making knives and we're all doing it the way we choose - yes offer advice to the new guys when asked, but the idea that one has to say that one way is "better" (all too often with disdain) and the other "way" is manure (and all too often is intimated that it shouldn't even be considered) sucks, because it as much depends on the end purpose and what desire one has for the final outcome.
If my desire was just all about building the "ultimate" and being technologically "better" I sure wouldn't be shooting muzzle stuffers - and yes getting "there" is not always possible, but one can get close. As much as I would like to have a rifle gun with a period forged lock and wrought iron barrel that's just not economically feasible for me, but with knives and hawks I can get much closer to the originals in all ways without a huge cash outlay.
FWIW I've been building knives since 1961 and have used both forging and stock removal methods and you will NEVER hear me bad mouth another maker's choice of method (and yes I often follow those threads on BF and elsewhere).....
Frankly, if a maker wants to stand on his head while facing the full moon or if he wants to do everything in a modern machine shop setting than so be it, that's his choice and I firmly believe it's not my place or IMO anyone else's to tell him it's "wrong" - especially if the end product is what THEY wanted it to be and they know the difference.....the caveat being that they don't tout it as the best or only way.
BTW - most of us "charcoal and motor oil" types use vegetable oil or something similar - it smells a whole lot better than petroleum products for one and yes at times many of us use propane as fuel - we can't always stay "pure" due to various circumstances.....

Per the original question: I agree wholeheartedly - a 10xx steel in the 1065-1084 range is one of the most user friendly knife steels available and they also just happen to come as close as possible to the original steels as we can regularly get in steels - and they can be ground or forged........Steels like 1095, W2, and 01 IMO are not the best for beginners due to several factors, most of which you've discussed.

As to cost - my last forging setup cost less than $100.00 including a homemade anvil - last time I looked a good pro knife grinder costs around $1,500.00. Because I've set my anvil up properly when pounding I make no more noise than my belt grinder, which I use little anyway since I forge as close as possible to final shape (90% plus usually) and then file by hand, which makes little noise and can be downright relaxing.....and my dear wife prefers the pounding to the whine of the grinder......And it's simple - an anvil, a small propane forge, a couple of hammers and tongs, quenchant since I do harden myself, and some files. For forging just fittings it's even simpler.....

In so far as quality, as I noted above what's "best" is/can be a matter of different strokes - my perhaps less than optimum built knives, whether built by me or friends, meet their intended purpose(s) - they cut what I want them to cut as and when needed. I use a couple of them everyday in the shop for cutting leather, which is tough on any blade, and while they may not wear as well as the high tech alloy steels might when built right, they sharpen up quick and I'm right back to work.......

Mystery Steels - well they can be downright fun and often have a special place in one's heart - the hawk head below was made from a piece of wagon wheel wrought iron for the eye and a chunk of wagon wheel spring for most of the blade (you can see the demarcation line). I picked up the pieces many moons ago on South Pass, WY along the Oregon Trail while exploring with my best friend - nope it won't cut as well as hi-tech blades, but it sure holds precious memories and that's something real special - plus it's probably the last hawk head I'll ever forge due to injuries....

 

[LaBonte]

Now out of curiousity and nothing else - Wick and pom-pom have you ever done any blade forging?

 

[dsuursoo]

Now out of curiousity and nothing else - Wick and pom-pom have you ever done any blade forging?

my share, over a coal fire and a brine quench. four pound hammer, six pound hammer, three pound cutler's hammers, and a 200 pound anvil. water driven box bellows in the japanese style driven off the creek running through the family farm.

forged materials included 1095 steel with a core of d-2, 1080 steel, 1018, stacked 1050/1075/1050, and a button bloom made from river sand iron and natural carbon, with limestone for flux. i was aiming for a version of wootz steel, just so you know.

final products included two broadaxes, a timbering axe, a set of trivets, and a differentially heat treated bastard sword that i'm still very proud of.

if you like we can discuss particulars of technique, as well. i'm not a ABS member, but i could probably pass their tests if i felt the need. said tests include pattern welding and heat treating to a rather demanding standard.

i actually do know what i'm talking about when it comes to making knives. sure, i'm not someone who's been doing it for decades, but i keep my eyes and ears open and learn something from everyone i can. i don't try to come across as disparaging any technique. i've done most of them. but, i'm trying to keep in mind here that the originator of this thread is a beginner.

sometimes it seems like not everyone is, and the thread got hijacked pretty quickly after i uttered the words 'stock removal'.

i've got tons of respect for the guys who still take hammer and anvil as their preferred method. it's a fascinating art that falls well outside the realm of being a science. and some of the work they do can be truly beautiful. they're keeping a piece of history very much alive and well, there are smiths hammering away all over the place. i personally consider Bill Moran a hero, and i'm sad that i'll never meet him in person.

but stock removal teaches a very needed skill for any knifemaker. grinder work. you can be a natural with the hammer, but if you grind poorly, well... you can probably imagine how it'll look.

yes, forging is vital, it's one of those things everyone who does things with metal should know. i've applied forging skills in the most unlikely places, doing some of the most unexpected things.

but we still need to recall that apprentices did a lot of work before they were making blades on their own, which is something i'm disappointed doesn't happen all that often anymore. there's something to be said for learning that way.

but in the end, i was just offering up another option to him, that might not have ever come up if i hadn't said a thing. it's all about choices, after all.

 

[anvil1231]

Wayne1967, I think we all agree that you may want to start out with the lower 10XX steels. However you decide to shape and heat treat it they will be more forgiving.

I want to apologize for the hijacking of your thread.

 

[dsuursoo]

Wayne1967, I think we all agree that you may want to start out with the lower 10XX steels. However you decide to shape and heat treat it they will be more forgiving.

I want to apologize for the hijacking of your thread.

i'll second this statement in its whole. if you're going to go the hammer and anvil route, i'll reccomend about a 1050 to 1070 or so. if there are any metalworking shops around, see if they'll show you the heat treating process some, especially tempering. getting a good temper is probably the single trickiest part. but the neat thing about tempering, if you don't get it right, you can go back, anneal, retreat, then try again.

unless you shatter the blade during heat treating. i did that with the 1095 i practiced with before making the axe. be very very careful after you do that first quench. the steel can be as brittle as glass.

 

[LRB]

Yes, I did Chuck. Tried it awhile. It never caught on with me. Maybe just a tad, but I don't like the heat in the summer months. I didn't like breathing the coal fumes, and the dust and grime from it. Having to drive 40 miles to buy it at the sellers convienance. I ended up with a propane forge, a Don Fogg designed vertical, but didn't like having to get bottles filled, and the heat this thing put out made it impractical to be used in the room where my forge was set up. I live right on the St. Johns river, and you can count on high water in the forge room at least once a year, and then I couldn't work, so I stopped fighting it and went back to the way I started, with no regrets. I also, after testing a number of different steels, decided on 01 as my primary blade steel, which requires above average skill to forge properly, and even yet more heat in order to do so. I will admit, my circumstances did not allow for a good trial, but that's the way of it. I have nothing against those who forge at all. I admire them, as long as they understand the true physics involved in what they are doing, and don't mimic some of the false, and outrageous claims I have heard in the past about how superior forged steel is. That can be a real point of contention with me. Not long ago, a younger buddy of mine attended a local blade forging seminar and came back very proud that the master smith there had taught him how to properly pack an edge. I had a bladesmith tell me that given two blades, one forged, the other stock removed, that the forged blade could cut the other in half with minimal damage, both having the same HT. He claimed to have witnessed this!! Now those are the sort of smiths I have no use for. Those smiths who know what is really going on in the steel, and know how to control it all without breaking the laws of physics, and have the skill to end up with a nicely finished blade, with a properly accomplished heat treat, those I admire. Blade forging is a skill and an art that should never be lost to technology, but instead stand proudly beside it. There is room for both, but the BS spreaders that are involved in forging need to wake up, and grow up. I just find no room for them in my world. They belong in fantasyland slaying dragons with Excaliber.

 

[wayne1967]

The vendor told me that they are made out of 8670 steel. I asked one of the maintenance guys cut out a rough blank with the plasma cutter. I am going to play around with it.

 

[dsuursoo]

The vendor told me that they are made out of 8670 steel. I asked one of the maintenance guys cut out a rough blank with the plasma cutter. I am going to play around with it.

ah, stainless steel.

a fun material to work with. the low maintainance when it's done is a plus. with some care you can make a hunting knife or two that could last for years and resist staining pretty well.

stainless is a stone cold ** to forge, in my experience. folding takes conditions the average person might not be able to attempt(oxyygen-less can welding comes to mind).

but if you just beat it to shape you might get away with it... if you do forge it, try to keep your fire very rich and reducing so as little oxygen as possible gets to the steel. use plenty of flux(borax is a good one-yes, the laundry soap) to keep it clean.

huh, wick. i'm familiar with don fogg's forge design, heck, i even got into an argument with him over the suitability of true refractory over the insulating wool he uses in those. most of the folks on his forum, if not all, tend to regard his forge as the come-all, end-all. it's refreshing to see someone else who didn't care for it.


correction!: 8670 is a nickle bearing high carbon steel, similar to 1075 in carbon content. so disregard the stainless talk, but do try to keep it oxygen free.

any of you hammering guys ever play with steel cable? fun stuff if you put it in a can to keep the oxygen away. makes for some pretty damascus.

 

[LRB]

I really just didn't like the heat coming out of it. It seemed to bring steel up pretty quick. My forge room is not large enough to operate it comfortably. It almost needs to be used outside, but then I can't judge the heat in the steel well enough.

 

[wayne1967]

You had me wondering there for a minute. There was a little rust on it when I got it.

 

[dsuursoo]

I really just didn't like the heat coming out of it. It seemed to bring steel up pretty quick. My forge room is not large enough to operate it comfortably. It almost needs to be used outside, but then I can't judge the heat in the steel well enough.

yeah, the high output is the one upshot to the design. the way he puts it together, it burns itself out inside of a year. if you're not on top of replacing that insulation on a regular basis, it'll melt down one day. the verticle tube design isn't all that great for doing long pieces either.

yeah, sorry bout that wayne. had to look twice and when i found out otherwise i was a bit 'manure!'

and yeah, stainless can corrode on you, in certain situations. a lot of stainless will corrode in a marine environment, actually. it doesn't rust much i think, tho. maybe not at all, i think.

the nickle in the steel you got will make things interesting. your knife can get really really hard. tempering should be fun. but ultimately it'll probably hold an edge for a good while, thanks to the nickle.

 

[LRB]

Pom-pom, this forge had a hole in the rear as well as front for doing swords, and a fan blowing across the entrance to get the heat away enough to not burn your hands or face. It was still too hot for even a semi-open evironment though. At least in the summer.