Knot

[Hoyt]

Just posting this to ask for advice..I got this stock with knot in plain view and didn't mention it because it was in plain veiw and figured it would be alright or I wouldn't have gotten this stock.
My problem is today I noticed the point edge of the knot is rising up away from stock. I sanded it down, but feel sure it will rise again as it dries.
I don't think I've got enough wood to get it out, I'm already down to 1-3/8" with the wrist.
Anybody got any advice on what I should do. Thanks for all help.

 

[flintriflesmith]

That looks like ingrown bark rather than a knot. The bad news is that ingrown bark usually results from damage to the tree while it was growing and the damage may be much more widespread than a simple knot would have been. Look very carefully at the other areas around this obvious flaw and see if you can figure out how serious the damage is. You may need to chisel out the ingrown bark and glue in matching wood.

 

[Black Hand]

Super glue! Walnut seems to respond well to this glue and you could also fill the void with superglue and sanding dust. The glue will darken the surrounding area some, but blends in very well with stain. I would add glue and clamp down the point until stable. You could then fill the void in your preferred manner.

 

[Erzulis boat]

No fun at all.

The stressed "knot" needs to be contained. I have used Titebond 3 woodglue mixed with 20 to 50 percent sawdust (by volume) to remedy the problem. What is nice about Tb3, is that it will "shrink" into the knotty area, and not act like a filler as would epoxy type glues.

You can use a clear filler (guitar building suppliers have a clear filler comprised of transparent microscopic glass spheres suspended in an epoxy matrix) to get the finish smooth, if that was the goal, and this would highlight the knot (sometimes better than trying to hide it IMO)or merely make some filler and stash the "flaw".

Another, but extremely drastic remedy, is to lift the apex of the knot until it snaps out, then without damaging any fragile splinters, glue it back in with Tb3.

I believe the "knot" is a parcel of errant bark.

 

[Bountyhunter]

At the price of stocks these days, I'd be on the phone with the stockmaker and seeing if they cant replace the stock. From the pics, that is a very unstable defect in the wood. It not only V's out, it has a ray out to the side. We used to manufacture log homes, and I used to be a certified Timber Products Inspection grader. That stock needs to be replaced. It will not pass inspection.

Bill

 

[Hoyt]

This is a picture I took of it when I got the stock..I thought I might be able to get below it, but it's getting worse not better..

 

[gmww]

I think bountyhunter is right. See if you can send it back before you put too much effort into it IMHO.

 

[rich pierce]

Usually once you begin to work on the stock, you have bought it permanently. I'd not ever be happy with it though and would try to get a replacement for free or at a serious discount.

 

[Stophel]

Once you've cut it, you've bought it. (I know all about this situation....)

Make something interesting out of it... Glue the manure out of it and add wood reinforcements if necessary, and then take a piece of sheet brass and wrap it around the stock to make it appear as a period repair.

I think I'm gonna do the same thing with a stock I have that has not-so-good grain in the wrist. It's wierd....on both sides of the blank, the grain ran through the wrist...well, OK, but as I cut into the stock (after inletting the barrel and rod, and cutting the profile of the stock) the grain in the wrist got worse and worse and worse...on BOTH sides. I hate to throw it away (like so many of my other screw ups..), SO, I think I'm gonna inlet a large reinforcing piece of wood into the bottom of the wrist and put on a piece of metal to cover the whole thing up. I think it'll look pretty neat.....

 

[Hoyt]

I really don't want to send it back even if I could. I got a lot of work in it already. Everythings inletted and pinned but the butt stock and finishing the trigger guard.
I didn't like the knot when I got the stock.. or one on the other side low on the butt and I got a note with it saying it wasn't the best of wood, etc..
However, I made a choice, knowing that I knew much, much, less about wood and gun stocks than did one of the most reputable gun stock men in the business and I knew he knew about the knots. So my thinking was that he figured the stock was OK so I'll use it.
I'm still going to use it and hope it don't break in half when I shoot it. The close-up picture may make it look worse than it is..although not sure if that's possible.
Anyway..if it breaks when I shoot it I'll ask for some serious discount on a replacement. This is my third gun and two out of three have knots. The other one developed a hair line crack inside the barrel channel as I was building it and out into the fore stock. I drilled and pinned it from inside the channel and not noticeable and has held up great for two hunting seasons.
I may..right before wood finishing, put a real small pin or two, small as I can find a bit to drill hole. Cut barbs in them and glue in on about a 30 degree angle. I'm mainly worried about the point lifting up as it dries and kinda think a beeswax treated stock with many coats of stain and finish could keep it from lifting.
Or I may just shoot it before I stain and if it don't break leave as is.
How narrow is too narrow to go on the wrist to try to get it out. The wrist will be wider than narrow anyway..like a Lehigh.

 

[MikeFromON]

That is a terrible defect. It is a knot resulting from damage to the tree when it was very young. That's why it is so deep, because the rest of the tree's flesh has grown around the scar for decades. Perhaps it was struck by lightning or maybe it lost a branch in a storm or one died from lack of light and moisture. Perhaps a moose gouged it when it was scraping its antlers. I would have sent it back right away after giving the vendor a nasty tongue-lashing on the phone :cursing:. Since you have worked the wood, I would finish the gun as normal, then wait for the inevitable day the stock cracks at the knot. With any luck, it will break cleanly all the way through, so you can just glue it back together and it will be solid as a rock after that. If you don't want it to break, you could finish the gun, then wrap a few layers of duct tape around the stock at the knot or support it with a metal band.

 

[MikeFromON]

After you stain but before you wax or varnish the wood, you could wrap a layer or two of resin-soaked glass cloth around the stock where the knot is. You could sand the edges smooth with the rest of the wood and then the re-inforcement would be almost imperceptible after final finishing.

 

[Black Hand]

If breakage is a concern, run a reinforcing rod through the wrist. As to the wood, a cosmetic defect such as this is a challange and will add character to your finished piece.

 

[Brasilikilt]

At the risk of sounding as though I have NO CLUE as to what I'm talking about, I'll share my idea:

I noticed you haven't done any inletting for a breech plug tang, and perhaps not any for the trigger plate either.
Could you get an extra long tang and trigger plate that bolt together through the wrist to act as kind of a reinforcement for the wrist area? I know this might involve exchanging parts you already have for the different ones, but I think it would be a lot better than a broken stock
Are there any reasons why this wouldn't work?

 

[mikelange]

The main reason it might not be a good idea (I stress "might") is one that a number of us don't always accept, which is that the long style of tang isn't generally seen on Lehigh rifles, and, thus, wouldn't be considered PC. The value of that statement is for the reader to decide! Not trying to say one way or another how "right" it would be.

If it were my gun, and I'd chosen to go on with the work, as Hoyt has, thus making it pretty much impossible to return the stock (I believe the clause about "hidden defects" would be applied to a visible defect that turned out to be far worse than it originally appeared), I might be tempted to stress the wrist now, before anything near the final shaping and smoothing is finished; and, if it broke, to pin and glue it and thank my lucky stars it had failed now and not while the gun was recoiling, with my hand wrapped around the wrist. Or, I'd pin it now. Yet a third option would be, as others have suggested, to reinforce the weak area with either a wrapping of sheet metal, wire, or the 18th century's version of duct tape, wetted-and-shrunk leather of some sort (I use the term "leather" to include deerhide, rawhide, and any other sort of originally animal hide, so let's not quibble about the terminology :v). I would not, however, use the stock as it now is, and if the vendor sold it as a first-quality piece of wood I wouldn't be doing business with him again, either.

 

[Hoyt]

Thanks for all the replies..I just want to stress here that I'm not complaining about the stock. I had every chance to send it back..I got the wood with a bill..all I had to do was to hold the money. The supplier said he knew the stock wasn't much, but for the lite weight I wanted that's what he had and knocked off some money on it.
It's just one of those cases that got worse instead of better. However..I don't think it's as bad as most seem to think it is. The picture exaggerates it some.
The reason I posted this thread was to get suggestions on how to deal with the knot "building wise". (I got everything inletted, drilled and tapped, but the nosecap.) I had pretty much forgotten about the thing until I saw the point had risen up off the stock. Could just be that I got one of them Opti Visors and can see now. Shore does take a long time to inlet wearing them things..you think you take a big chunk out and lift the visor to see you ain't hardly done nothin.

 

[John Vaccaro]

I vote with Black Hand. Drill a hole from the end of the breach plug inlet and install a steel rod with epoxy. Fill the inclusion and have a very sturdy rifle with some character. John :thumbsup:

 

[BLAHMAN]

I vote with Black Hand. Drill a hole from the end of the breach plug inlet and install a steel rod with epoxy. Fill the inclusion and have a very sturdy rifle with some character. John :thumbsup:

I agree....use a steel rod inserted from the breech end, use acri-glass and a threaded rod, not a smooth rod. Good luck!

 

[CrackStock]

Apparently, you are wanting to accept this as a challenge since you reject Plan A of sending that back ASAP.

The real concern is not cosmetic, the real concern is that the weakness is in an area that has greatest stress.

You can ignore it until it breaks or repair it before it breaks. (Some believe that a break is inevitable while I just think it very likely.)

I would plan on installing a serious support rod fixed with some sort of fiberglass bedding/repair compound. Then make a brass wrap around the wrist to conceal the repairs.

Scratch some decorations along the borders and work a design into the body to make it more interesting. Try to blend into your gun features as well as possible.

This type of repair can be seen on original rifles such as Jacob Ferree, rifle #33 of Kindig's Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age. (Page 120)

Rifle #105, #106 and #115 are poorer repairs in that they do not work the brass patch into the architecture of the side panels and only cover the stock patch. (Pages 259, 260 and 273)

Rifle #132 also offers some possibilities in that it has an odd piece added which flows well with the gun. I am not sure what this patch was intended to cover, but it is interesting and a variation might be useful in your situation. I would inlet it rather than leaving it standing proud.

Rifle #256 has a utilitatrian patch but lacks the art of the builder. An awful contrast, but correct.

Another patch can be seen on #199 (Page 432) which is a wrapped repair rather than a brass patch. Ugly and bulky, but it could be made to work and would be period correct. I would not use this, but many would.

Yes, I am trying to get you to look at a copy of this fine book. I also hope that you will consider something along the lines of #33 or #132 in your project so as to flow with the lines of your rifle.

Good luck!

CS

 

[Hoyt]

This *&^%* knot just keeps getting worse. I was roughing in some carving on the wrist and just touched the point of the knot with my exacto knife and it popped out.
I'm just trying to get my money's worth out of this stock. The only way I know to do that is to use it as a practice piece. I'm going to build the gun just as I would have and it will be another one under my belt for experience. However..I still have slimmer after today..but hopes it will not break or shatter when I shoot it. My reason for posting these pictures is to see if anyone has any ideas..like drilling into it and pouring epoxy or something fairly simple short of all thread rods. I did have a little hope it may not break and was going to gamble on it. Now I think I need to do something and should do it before I start with the finishing.
I'm a little leary of digging into the knot too much because it looks like it may be about half of the wrist.
I thougth about opening up the vertical crack enough to get acraglass or epoxy into it that way and also down into the area that popped out.