Landed an original 3-band Enfield

[Heatseeker64]

Hey all, been a while since I dropped in here.

I just came by a Pattern 1853 3-band Enfield .577 for a bargain price here in Australia.

The good news is the stock is perfect and, looking at the bore, it appears unfired.

Bad news is, it appears it's been hanging above a bar for the best part of a century and there's a fine layer of ingrained rust over the external metal bits.

That said, the brass trigger guard is also coated with what appears to be sprayed on black goop, so perhaps a bit of sympathetic cleaning could yield some buried treasure.

It's also a mystery as to why the exterior appears to have a layer of blackened ingrained rust, but the bare metal of the bore is in what appears to be perfect condition.

It appears to be an 1861 Tower Musket (markings obscured), and I reckon I could get her making some loud noises and sending some lead down range.

Question is, in the case of the worst case scenario that the externals are in fact rusted, are original parts such as barrel bands, swivels and rear sight available?

The ram road is also missing.

I have lifted off the side plate, and all the innards are immaculate, with, once again, no sign the rifle has ever been fired.

Also, if the barrel is covered with ingrained rust, would it be kosher to polish and re-blue it?

I snappped it up because the timber is the most original and in the best condition I have seen, so I may come across one with a ratty stock down the track I can also pick up for a good price.

Yeah, I know, I will post some pictures asap.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[mudd turtle]

Yes -orginal parts are available here is the U.S. Don't do so much cleaning that you ruin the colectable value of piece. You might think about useing the battery chargeing trick to clean the out side of the barrel. Leave the breechplug in and cork up the muzzle and (electrolices) sp? might take care of the outside. Before you do anything think about all the options- you don't want to ruin such a good find. Oh by the way one of the parts places is call Lodge wood and they are good people to deal with. There are others but I can't think of them right now-just be sure to tell them you need the best orginal parts they have. It will be pricey. Another person is Terry Kirpatick in Virginia. hope I have helped some. mudd turtle.

 

[guncobbler]

Is it still loaded? GC

 

[Heatseeker64]

Okay, had another look at it today ... it's actually an 1858 Tower, and I reckon it's coated, not rusted - if you have a look at the brass, it has the same rough black surface as the metal, and the rear sight and hammer move smooth as silk.

Anyway, here's some pics:

Any feedback appreciated!

 

[jdstrang]

You might want to go out soon and buy a lottery ticket to see if any residual luck from making such a catch can still rub off!

Seriously, if it's parts you may need, check with these folks:[url] http://www.lodgewood.com/[/url]
They have the best stockpile of parts that I know of in the U.S.

Hope it shoots as good as it looks!

 

[Mulebrain]

A really neat find! Leave the stock alone, but you may want to use electrolysis to de-rust the lock and barrel assemblies. I would do that, just to bring out the markings on lock and barrel!

Or I would really check it out mechanically, and just oil it up and roll!

BTW if it was in a bar for many years, there might be allot of smoke stain. A little light cleaning with murphy's oil soap may be in order!

Nice find :thumbsup:

 

[bucktales]

I agree with Mule Brain.
In a bar for 100 years, 100 years of nicotine caked on.

 

[paulvallandigham]

An ammonium solution in water will cut through the nicotine, leaving everything else in better shape. Only after getting off the nicotine, can you possibly get an idea of what that wood looks like. Even the metal parts may be in better shape than they now look.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

:shake: Gentlemen, for goodness sake, it is not nicotine, some of it may be tar from smoke but the worst of it is caused by a lot of years without being wiped occasionally and high humidity from people's bodies and breath and evaporating liquids like beer and water in the sink - those are the conditions that will cause what you see. No worse than the ones we used to find in closets in old, unheated homes and in barn lofts. (Maybe the cows and horses in the barn were heavy smokers? Nah...) As far as removing that, do what Paul said and some of it will, with some gentle persuasion, come off. Then you can start with the hard part, removing the rust caused by hanging in that warm, sticky atmosphere all those years with no air conditioning or care. It has the potential of being a great looking gun, be careful to check to see if there is any original finish left. The barrel and triggerguard were blued and that may still be under the goop. The lock was casehardened and some of that seems to be showing through. You've got a lot of work ahead of you, just don't get too aggressive and it'll work out fine.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use a nylon bristled brush, like an old toothbrush, to scrub the metal parts, with soap and water, and then with diluted ammonium in water. It can also get gunk of the wood, and out of cracks in the wood, too. If I were going to do restoration work on an original, I would use the electrolysis process described elsewhere here on the forum to remove the rust and restore the finish, to the extent possible on the metal parts. The wood would receive a good cleaning, even if I had to use Homer Formby's cleaner to get the dirt out and off it. Then a hand rubbed oil finish with BLO or tung oil, but NOT with the new finishes, like my favorite BC Tru-oil, or Linspeed, other oils with dryers in them. They would leave an inappropriate glossey finish to the stock. See if you can't give us some new pictures after you do your initial cleaning. I have other ideas on how to go about dealing with specific problems, and I am sure other members here will also have suggestions that can save much of the remaining finish on the gun barrel and other metal parts.

 

[eka]

A valuable piece no doubt. A many a fine firearm has been heavily devalued due to agressive cleaning and polishing. If it were mine, I would have it appraised by a qualified source before I done anything more than lubricate it. You can also discuss restoration at that time and the impact it would have on the value. Most collectors of firearms such as this would much prefer the piece in a mostly untouched state still wearing proudly the effects of father time.

You will want to know the value of the piece before deciding whether to consider it a collectable or a shooter.

Advice from a guy who has been there and done that.

Keith

 

[Heatseeker64]

Yes, I'm definitely going to take the stance of "less is more" when it comes to this rifle.

It appears to be an intact first type of a Pattern 53 with the only markings since it left the factory being the rack number, unit engraving and "sold out of service" stamp pn the stock and barrel.

It's been in this state for a while, so it won't hurt it to stay that way for another few weeks.

As it is, I have an ongoing project at the Australian War Memorial, and I am able to show the wepaon to one of their metal preservation gurus next week.

Regards the stock, well, apart from a light coat of linseed, I'm not touching it.

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Yes, I'm definitely going to take the stance of "less is more" when it comes to this rifle.

It appears to be an intact first type of a Pattern 53 with the only markings since it left the factory being the rack number, unit engraving and "sold out of service" stamp pn the stock and barrel.

It's been in this state for a while, so it won't hurt it to stay that way for another few weeks.

As it is, I have an ongoing project at the Australian War Memorial, and I am able to show the wepaon to one of their metal preservation gurus next week.

Regards the stock, well, apart from a light coat of linseed, I'm not touching it.

Thanks for all the feedback.

You are looking at it in the best way. One bit of advice if I may - if any blue is remaining after the removal of the hard dirt that has built up, remember that the bluing is a rust finish, in other words what we now call "rust blue", a VERY durable finish. If you use any chemical or electronic rust removal method it will also remove the bluing and soon have a nice, non-regulation (in British service) burnished finish.

Try this: I have, in the past, had good luck preserving the bluing by first cleaning, as Paul and others have suggested, and then applying a generous amount of oil to all iron and steel parts and allowing it to soak for 2 or 3 days. At the end of the first day wipe off the oil using a coarse rag, you will be surprised at how much rust is removed. Repeat the process for the next two days and then take a careful look. You will find that a good amount of rust has been loosened and removed. Now, pay special attention to areas where the rag has not been able to get to, like the bolster (behind the cone) and in the rear sight's recesses. These will be caked with softened rust. Find a piece of brass (cartridge brass works well but I prefer slightly thicker brass sheeting, avoid hard brass, especially manganese bronze) and use it to scrape in these areas, getting into corners and remove as much of the rust as possible - keep the rust soft with a drop or two of oil while scraping. Do this in any areas where rust is thicker, including the surface of the barrel at the breach, concentrating on the small areas where there may be those tiny cakes of rust. Go slowly, it will take time.

After you are satisfied with the amount removed from large surfaces, it is time to work on the engraving and stampings like on the hammer, lockplate and proof marks. This may scare you but I use a piece of music (piano) wire that has been sharpened to a not too sharp point. (You could use a large needle, a harness makers needle would work, leather working needles do not have a sharp point, but they are too hard and will break relatively easily. Just be sure that the point is not too sharp.) You will need to find a way of holding the wire, I use a small brad holder about the diameter of a pencil and 3 inches long. It allows good control and a solid grip. Gently follow the lines of the engraving/stampings, you will get a feel for it quickly. Before doing this, remove most but not all of the oil, it will have softened the rust in the recesses very well. Scrape only the rust, it will feel relatively soft - once you get to the surface of the metal, you will feel a difference, it will be hard, unyielding and "slick". You must stop there and move on to the next place. Flush constantly with a drop of oil and look at what you are doing. (Have good lighting over your work space and hold the work firmly in a padded vice.) Again, you will get a feeling for what you are doing and will know where to stop. You might start this with the barrel maker's name on the bottom of the barrel, then move on to visible markings when you are comfortable with your technique. This will also be used to carefully remove rust from screw slots which will clean up as sharp as new.

Now, I know that the above will take time, lots of it and people are sitting at their computers now, rolling their eyes and doing this: :youcrazy: Well, they may be right, but this works. I have used it on heavily engraved hunting scenes on English fouler locks where the engraving was so clogged with dirt and rust that the engraving was hardly visible at all and people (myself included) have been amazed with the results. If you decide to do it, it takes time and patience and you must stop when you begin to try to rush or loose that patience. That is VERY important, one slip with the sharpened wire and you will have a scratch that will be there forever. :shocked2: Good luck, whatever you do, I hope the results will be what you yourself are satisfied with. I hope this helps, make use of it as you see fit. I like that Enfield and it deserves all that you can do.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Gently remove the barrel and lock and you'll probably see the assembler's marks, the lock maker's mark and the barrel maker's marks. I figure this is a Birmingham gun.

 

[MilSurp]

Heat - can't wait to see it after all your :yakyak: on the phone. I'll be around with the Dremell and 60grit sandpaper tommorrow, we'll get that baby sparkling like a brand new Weatherby in no time at all. :thumbsup: :grin:

 

[Heatseeker64]

Ouch! It's rust all right, but I reckon the prognosis is good, and this old girl will gleam again.

Everything came apart easy enough and some light oiling even got the rear sight fully operational.

Giving it a good soaking of oil, and then I'll get to lifitng the crud.

Most of the worst pitting is below the wood line, and none of it is deep enough to make the barrel dangerous to fire.

Looking at the magnificent bluing that survives, the rifle was obviously in superb condition when it left service ... there has to be a lesson for us all that we are merely custodians of history.

On the plus side, the inside of the lock is like new, the rifling's fine and the stock is the best I've seen on a three bander.

Just about every part I thought I'd have to replace should clean up fine with minor putting and original bluing intact at worst, although the ram rod is definitely a lost cause.

As far as I can tell, this rifle is an inact first type Enfield three bander, so it would be nice to keep all the parts that have made it this far together.

The pix show the rifle at its worst, but some oil soaking has all ready revealed original metal finishes and this old soldier will see a bit more service yet!

 

[Mulebrain]

Keep it going, great stuff!

 

[old gunsmith]

Just thought I would propose a heretical opinion: sometimes restoration instead of preservation makes sense. Some folks would look at this rifle and try to remove the corosion and accept the pitting as a legitimate part of this rifle's history- that's the preservation perspective. Some folks would look at this rifle and see a tragedy in that because of an unusual storage cicumstance the external metal does not match the bore condition nor the legitimate wear on the wood and brass parts. So my question to everyone is this: suppose a first rate gunsmith were to correctly refinish the barrel, bands, lock and small parts using original methods and then age the parts to match the wood condition (which is not new) so everything appears as a rifle of that age should look, the right patina and average wear? Bear in mind, this rifle should not look new; but the wood and metal condition should match each other. That's a restoration perspective. Leaving out the obvious question of the cost-benefit ratio, what do you think?
Regards, Old Gunsmith

 

[paulvallandigham]

Heat: Years ago, a man brought me a rifle, that was an heirloom to him, but had no real market value. It had been allowed to stand in a damp basement, and it had " flowers " of rust all over the barrel. The stock was not a thing of beauty, either, mut mostly it showed wear, as well as dirt and dust.

I coated the barrel with thick motor oil, and then dipped OOOO steel wool in the oil and very, VERY lightly burnished the rost on the barrel, making sure that I did not scratch the remaining blued finish with either my steel wool or with the oxides of iron which became sharp pieces of grit when they broke loose. I flushed the barrel frequently, and dipped that wool frequently and created a good pile of oxide grit on the bottom of the pan of oil I was using, but I was able to gently remove all the flowers of rust. What remained were some pin sized or smalller pits in the barrel, and discoloration where the finish had been lost around the pits.

I did not attempt to polish the barrel.

Instead, I simply heated the barrel up after cleaning off the oil and cleaning the barrel with alcohol, to about 220 degrees, using a propane torch, and used cotton swabs to put cold blue solution on the barrel. Several passes with the swab produced a similar color to the existing finish. When I finished with the blue, I washed off the residue, cleaned the barrel again with alcohol to remove any trace of oil, and then heated the barrel back up again. This time I sprayed the barrel with WD40 and stood back while it smoked and sizzled on the metal. The burning oil helped to darken the blue and it did match the factory color of blue/black. The oil also seems to make the bluing solution set in the metal so that it is not easily removed with the rubbing of hands, with the acids and oils commonly found on hands.

I am not suggesting that you re-blue the gun. This is an antique, and it probably has more value simply cleaned up and left in the white where rust has actually removed the bluing underneath. A check with a good antique firearm appraiser should guide you. However, if you intend to shoot the gun, then I don't think you are going to ruin its value either by shooting it, or by touching up finish.

 

[Heatseeker64]

Well ... got the lock cleaned up and back together.

As much as this old girl's not in ideal condition, it came to me for the right price, and it has been a real learning experience in which, to date, I have maganed to avoid any major "whoopsies".

Needless to say, I have now learned how to disassemble and out back together a Pattern 53 Enfield lock. It turns out I got a few things "arse-about" when I took it to bits but the Enfield gods were smiling on me and I got away with a few things I shouldn't have.

Looking at the crud, the hammer was forward when the rust started to take hold.

The internals are excellent, but because of the intrusion to the internal edges of the plate I decided to do a full pull down and clean up.

After all the crud was removed I found there was minimal pitting to the metal - I've seen World War II era rifles much worse - and there were some markings hididng in there.

Needless to say, I learnt the trick of compressing the main spring and lining it up with the mechanism to assemble the action.

The hammer also cleaned up all right ... there's a bit too much "bling" at the moment, but that will settle down with use and handling.

The markings inside the plate:

I love it when a plan comes together:

The rear sight has also come good with a full range of smooth movements:

Regards the rest, well I'm still hunting down rust spots on the barrel, and the stock's that bloody nice, I'm not game to turn a screw. It will get a bit of a drink of linseed, but that will be all. I'll need to take the barrel to a 'smith to have the nipple removed, and I am contemplating the merits of cracking the plug so I can properly inspect the bore and give it a thorough clean.

I could be a smart bugger and start hunting down a barrel to replace the pitted one I have, but this old girl's made it this far in one piece, and I reckon she should stay that way.

There's also the satisfaction of tidying up what was obviously a superb rifle when it was sold out of service, and one day soon sending some smoky lead down range!