Late Lancaster?

[kencolamarino]

I do not profess to know all or even that much about the history of the different schools of long rifle building. However, I do know what I like and am talking to a builder about probably the only custom made rifle I'll own before I'm history.
I can be OK with a pinned trigger and guard, as I can remove the lock to clean and oil, but really like the look of three or four escucheons with wedges to hold the barrel to stock. Not only for the look, but to occasionally take the rifle down as I plan to shoot it alot. Somehow it really bothers me to not be able to correctly clean and lube a barrel. I have nightmares about it rusting between barrel and stock after getting good and wet in the rain and snow and then put away.
With the money spent for carving, inlays, patch box, nickle silver,swamped barrel, nice wood, etc. etc. am I building something that never would have been made that way? Are wedges really incorrect? I have seen them on longrifles of this period.

I also prefer a more blue/black finish than the lighter rust brown.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Ken

 

[Leonredbeard]

Paborn,
The whole idea with a custom rifle is for you to have just what you want. Get what you like. I built a German silver mounted PA Lancaster school for myself back in '91. It had wedges, carving of my own design, and an ebony ramrod, Getz golden age 'C' weight barrel in .54. I was pleased with it, that is all that mattered! :blah: :grin: Get exactly what you want. It will be yours to cherish and pass on to your kids.
volatpluvia

 

Probably close to half of the 1800-1840 Lancasters had wedges instead of pins, but that was not really for the ease of takedown. These guns have very thin fragile forestocks and very few of them had hooked breeches. Every time you pull the barrel out you risk breaking the forestock or the tang inlet. You don't really need to do this anyway. Coat the bottom side with something to protect it like wax and seal the barrel channel well and it never needs to come apart again.

Also, you can rust-blue with a browning agent like LMF by boiling the barrel in water.

Sean

 

[jimmytheshank]

Ya know PaBorn, as a newbie to the forum and like yourself, a future custom rifle owner. I have to agree with Volatpluvia. A custom rifle is exactly that,....CUSTOM. I have great respect for the guys that strive to be as historically accurate as possible with their choice of rifle, wood and trimmings. But the truth is,IMHO, the joy that comes with owning a muzzleloader is that your imagination is your only limit. True, in the old days, silver and carving was expensive,and even though most rifles were built for practical use, many owners fixed them up and were very proud of their guns. Having a plain or fancy museum piece gun really doesnt matter. As long as it shoots straight that is.Still, when it comes down to it, if your gonna spend a good amount of your hard earned cash, then get what ya want. I have 2 rifles being built for me from Ray Franks at Sitting Fox Muzzleloaders. Both rifles are Lehigh style, .50 caliber ,one with a straight 46" barrel and silver trim and one with a swamped 48" barrel with steel trim .Both in very fancy curly maple with all furniture "in the white" and wooden patchboxes, and maybe some carving too. Historically accurate? Nope. But I'm happy.And thats what matters to me. With what your paying and the joy you'll get from admiring your heart's desire, that's all that will matter to you too. Enjoy your new rifle without regrets pard. :thumbsup:

 

[longshot47]

Go for the wedges. Adds to the cost; but also to the value!
~Longshot

 

[Old Salt]

I wouldn't be concerned about removing the barrel each time you want to clean the rifle.

I have three flintlock rifles which have the stock pinned to the barrel. I remove the barrel every time I clean them. It's no more difficult than removing wedges.

Salt

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Build what you want, the way you want it.

Forget about the nay sayers, this is about you.

Keys or pins, makes no difference the barrel should come out for cleaning.

 

[Frank/Pa]

There is no need to ever take the barrel out of the stock.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

There is no need to ever case harden a lock plate either, but I do it on the guns I build. Just makes sence to do the best job I can.

Removing the barrel is part of my cleaning routine and it works well for me, I would rather be damn sure that there is no fouling residue left behind, just makes sence. Pulling and installing pins or keys and barrels for cleaning is not rocket science and can be done with no resultant damage to the rifle, if you do not feel comfortable doing it then don't.

Dead horse issue.

 

Yep, it's one a those tamaters, tomatoes kinda deals. Me,...I prefer tamayduz. :hmm:

 

[Old Salt]

There is no need to ever take the barrel out of the stock.

I will agree that there is no "need" to remove a barrel since there are other methods to clean a rifle.

I just prefer to remove the barrel while cleaning. I find I get the best results that way.

Salt

 

[tg]

"am I building something that never would have been made that way? Are wedges really incorrect? I have seen them on longrifles of this period"

This statement indicates you may have a concern for the historicaly correct, before you decide on what to do first decide if a PC/HC gun is what you really want or if you are content with a fantasy gun so to speak, something with all the things you want, very nicely made but not something that would be made in the past, either way is fine just be aware of the difference and choose which you want, and the barrel does not need to come out for cleaning nor does the ventliner if so equiped, these two snippets of ill advise are always tossed around as though they were fact.

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. tg,
Well stated.
Respectfully,
WW

 

[Stormrider51]

As someone else noted, most Pennsylvania long rifles had thin forearms that were easily broken. I've handled several originals that were now halfstocks but had evidence of having originally been fullstock. By evidence I mean splits in the remaining forearm and/or underbarrel ribs/thimbles that appeared to date from a later time than the rest of the rifle.

It does appear that the use of wedges came later than the use of pins. If you trace the history of muzzleloading rifles in the New World you will find that the early Jaeger rifles were short in length and large in caliber. These evolved into the long and slender Pennsylvania rifles of smaller caliber. The smaller caliber meant less demand for lead and powder and worked fine in the eastern forests of early America. As the frontier moved west pioneers encountered two factors that changed the design of rifles. One was horseback travel. A shorter rifle was handier on horseback. The second factor was buffalo and grizzlies. These larger animals demanded larger calibers for sure quick kills. The long slender Pennsylvania rifle evolved into the shorter larger bored Plains Rifle that is epitomized by the Hawken.

So to get back to the original question of whether wedges are "traditional" enough, I'd say that if it worked then some rifle maker used them. Those guys weren't stupid. We have to keep in mind that most of the surviving rifles from the period are expensive pieces that were created to be as much works of art as functional rifles. That's why they survived. They didn't get used much. The fact that most of them use pins to secure the barrel to the stock is, in my mind, limited evidence of what was done generally. I have in my shop a barrel of obvious age that is 50" in length, approximately 13/16" across the flats, and of .42 caliber. It has three tenons that indicate it was originally secured by wedges to a fullstock. Is all this original? Who knows?

My flintlock rifle has pins. Four of them to be exact. The forearm is slender and fragile. I very carefully remove the barrel from the stock for cleaning. That's just part of the price I pay for hunting/shooting a traditional muzzleloader. It is easy for me since I've been doing it for more than 40 years.

Storm

 

[bioprof]

Many of the rifles of the Littlestown school such as made by Jacob and Frederick Sell and J. Shriver had keys, some with beautiful estacheons. John Armstrong of the Emmitsburg school also used keys. In Kindigs book, there are several Lancaster rifles that appear to have barrel keys. Were barrel keys ever used on Golden Age rifles? Absolutely!

 

[tg]

"It does appear that the use of wedges came later than the use of pins. If you trace the history of muzzleloading rifles in the New World you will find that the early Jaeger rifles were short in length and large in caliber. These evolved into the long and slender Pennsylvania rifles of smaller caliber. The smaller caliber meant less demand for lead and powder and worked fine in the eastern forests of early America. As the frontier moved west pioneers encountered two factors that changed the design of rifles. One was horseback travel. A shorter rifle was handier on horseback. The second factor was buffalo and grizzlies. These larger animals demanded larger calibers for sure quick kills. The long slender Pennsylvania rifle evolved into the shorter larger bored Plains Rifle that is epitomized by the Hawken'

Interesting but rather general and much like what is taught in school books, the story is much more complex, the German rifles wew
re also made in lengths of 4' and as early as the 1750's there were long barreled rifles being imported and likley made here, large bore rifles were not uncommon in the Golden age or even the late flint period though the average cal was smaller than a generation before and early on in the east most travel was on horse back with long rifles, one might consider the possibility that the rifle barrels did not get longer but the long smoothbores of the time got rifled ( just a thought about the perspective of it all)often we try to over simplify the history of guns in the 18th century and many misconceptions have become rather etched into a not so accurate view of history.

 

[Okwaho]

Many of the rifles of the Littlestown school such as made by Jacob and Frederick Sell and J. Shriver had keys, some with beautiful estacheons. John Armstrong of the Emmitsburg school also used keys. In Kindigs book, there are several Lancaster rifles that appear to have barrel keys. Were barrel keys ever used on Golden Age rifles? Absolutely!

I agree here and the query did refer to "late Lancaster" rifles which are generally considered to be rifles produced Ca. 1790-1830 which is the beginning of the Federal period and includes the Golden Age of Kentucky rifle production.I had a Virginia rifle Ca.1790-1810 made in Tennessee with keys instead of pins. I believe the Fordneys and other late Lancaster makers often used keys rather than pins.Some guns of this period are found with captured keys which prevented the keys from being lost.Generally these were used by the better makers some of whom were mentioned by Bioprof.
Tom Patton

 

Tom,
A couple of years ago I was able to handle several run of the mill Deringer trade rifles circa 1810-1840 and most of these had captured keys, as did a late flint J. Henry halfstock. Deringer was of course from Philly, but the Henrys were from Lancaster County and worked in both Philly and Boulton. These were basic hardware store guns.

Sean

 

[Okwaho]

Sean, I don't recall handling many of thse guns but have seen keys pretty frequently in the 19th century.I guess gunsmiths realized the benefits of them and perhaps also started using the captured versions to keep Indians and other like users from loing regular keys,just a thought.
Tom Patton