Leather for Over Powder/Over Shot Cards

[Historian]

The one that is mounted in the drill press is the 16 mm that I use for my Pedersoli 20 gauges. The other one to the right is the 20 mm I used for the Pedersoli big 10 ga. I just had a machinist turn down the handles of the punches so they could be chucked in a drill press.

 

[Zutt-man]

Has anyone tried using leather when using pre-made cartridges? Results?

 

[Wayne/Al]

W

The one that is mounted in the drill press is the 16 mm that I use for my Pedersoli 20 gauges. The other one to the right is the 20 mm I used for the Pedersoli big 10 ga. I just had a machinist turn down the handles of the punches so they could be chucked in a drill press.
[/QUOT What size/Weight leather do you use to make your wads? What is your source for the leather? I went to a local leather shop to buy some and it is pretty expensive. Thanks

 

[ohio ramrod]

I have used leather over powder wads for over twenty years. I have an unlimited supply of leather scraps from a local leather and harness shop and make my own punches.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Has anyone tried using leather when using pre-made cartridges? Results?

I use a paper shot cartridge over my leather wads in my shotguns. I make them out of three thickness of newspaper, tied shut with kite string. I load powder, two leather over powder wads, then the shot cartridge. I find it improves my patterns.

 

[Woody Morgan]

I use a paper shot cartridge over my leather wads in my shotguns. I make them out of three thickness of newspaper, tied shut with kite string. I load powder, two leather over powder wads, then the shot cartridge. I find it improves my patterns.

Nothing really to put a hole in the pattern. Nice.
How far out does the paper fall or does it just turn to confetti?

wm

 

[ohio ramrod]

The paper just turns to confetti. I have found that more than three thickness of paper gives too tight of a pattern, two thicknesses doesn't hold up to handling.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I have used leather wads with shot loads in a smoothbore, but not recently. There was an article mentioning this practice in a back issue of Muzzle Blasts, from the late fifties or early sixties. I'll look it up.

Leather wads worked great for me. I was never very scientific about it, but just used whatever scraps of heavy belt or harness leather were available.

A 5/8" arch punch cuts perfectly sized wads for 20 gauge. I don't know about the other sizes. What you want is a wad diameter somewhere around .010" larger than bore size. Arch punches are not cheap... Last time I bought one, I think I paid $35 - $40 for it. The larger sizes cost more than the small ones. I believe they come in fractional sizes in increments of 1/16" (.0625"), as well as metric sizes. I don't have a link handy, but if you look up Campbell-Bosworth tools, you should find a good selection of fractional and metric punches. You can calculate the size you need.

I don't want to vector too far off topic, but there was an article in Muzzleloader magazine a few years back by Mike Nesbitt in which he described cutting wads from wool blanket scraps. After cutting the wads, he would drop them in a pot of melted tallow, which the fabric would soak up almost immediately. He then lifted the wads out, I guess with forceps, and spread them out to cool. I haven't tried this. Sounds like a good way to keep your bore lubricated while shooting, not to mention your hands.

Best regards,
Notchy Bob

 

[Grenadier1758]

Harbor Freight has punches, but unfortunately they only go up to 1/2".

For use in a drill press or hand drill: Hollow Punch Set, 6 Pc. (harborfreight.com)

For use with a hammer: Hollow Punch Set, 9 Pc. (harborfreight.com)

You can find Hollow Punch sets on Ebay with up to 3/4" diameter punches for under $20.
leather hollow hole punch set | eBay

Click on the lighter colored text.

These are not high quality punches, but then one doesn't need high quality punches for leather discs that are to be shot from a muzzle loader.

If you pick the set with the widest range of punches, you would be able to punch wads from a 36 caliber revolver to a 12 gauge fowling piece. With little effort even to a King's Musket (Brown Bess).

 

[Notchy Bob]

Just a couple of things to add...

Regarding punches, the offerings from Harbor Freight appear to be a very economical choice. If you choose to go first class, check out Campbell-Randall Tools: Round Punches

You have options.

Here is the article from Muzzle Blasts, to which I alluded in my earlier post. I'm sorry that I don't have the knowledge or skills to present this on one page, but the entire article is there if you don't mind jumping back and forth to read it:

The article is "M.L. Shooting in the Seventies," by Doug Bell, from the February 1955 issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine. This is the very article that inspired me to try leather wads so many years ago. It should (but may not) go without saying that the "Seventies" in the article's title are the 1870's, now a century and a half past, but still within living memory when this article was published. Our Canadian friends may also take some pride in knowing that all of this early experimentation with leather wads took place in Ontario.

As described in the story, the author's uncle used heavy, 1/4" harness leather wads over the powder and wads cut from cereal box cardboard over the shot, and he enjoyed excellent results. However, all of that is in the article for you to read. All I can say is that when I tried the same formula in my El Cheapo brand Spanish fowling piece back in my much younger days, squirrels in the neighbor's pecan grove learned to fear me. Or at least to avoid me.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Artificer]

For those of you who have actually used leather cards, did you use two thick ones over the powder as a sort of combination card and wad? Then another thinner one over the shot? Or perhaps a single thick leather card over the shot?

Gus

 

[Notchy Bob]

It was a long time ago when I tried it. I believe I did pretty much what the article described, if I remember correctly... One leather wad over the powder and a card wad over the shot. I never patterned the gun, though. The wad cutter used for that Spanish gun mentioned in my post above was home-made from a piece of black iron pipe. Dad found a bit of the about the right size to bore it out, and we ground a sharp bevel on one end, for cutting, and and ground a deep cut in the side for clearing the cut wads.

We didn't have a wad cutter for the other smoothbores in the family. I think Dad had four old percussion doubles. We used hornet's nest in those, when we had it, and tissue when we didn't. I'm sure patterns and velocity were suboptimal, but life was simpler then, and we had fun and brought home some game.

Notchy Bob

 

[Historian]

Gentlemen, I typically use 1 to 2. 1/8" hard leather over the powder. 1/4 inch hard wool felt wad soaked in beeswax and olive oil. The shot is loaded over this and then another 1/4" hard wool felt soaked in the beeswax and olive oil combination.bfor hot weather shooting I use only one leather over powder was. For cold weather shooting I use 2. All three of my Pedersoli 20's love this combination. Both the flintlock and the caplock.
Word of caution. The Pedersoli 20's are closer to 19 gauges and the standard 5/8" punches will not work as they are too small. I use Osborne 16 mm arch punches in all the Pedersoli 20's. If you use the 5/8" the wads will not be a good snug fit and you will notice it as you ram them home. Also a Chronograph will easily show the difference. For a properly sized .615 20 ga bore the 5/8" punch is fine but the Pedersoli 20's measure about .625 at least mine do.
Rob.

 

[user 48702]

Been doing more experimenting with leather wads in the Pedersoli Trade Gun. I found that if you use the greasy heavy stuffed harness leather as it comes from the tannery, no lube at all is needed. I found some scrap that measured anywhere from 16 to 20 (1/4" to 5/16") ounce thickness, so only one wad was used. Also, if you use strap leather or other dry leather, I found another ready made leather dressing that works great, it is made out of beeswax and bear grease called Bearguard Leather Boot Waterproofing. I used to use the Bearguard years ago before we started having our own military wax made. I still had some cans of the Bearguard that are over 20 years old and and are still as good as the day when they were made. Since it is an all natural product, I thought I would give it a try. You don't have to saturate the leather wad in the wax, just roll the edge of the wad across the surface of the wax to give it a greasy coating, then put the greased wad in a tin or other container. I have also used it to lube the grease grooves on bullets. Bearguard is still available today, and comes in a metal shoe polish type 6 oz. tin for about $17. You can peel the labels off the tin if you want. Back when I used to sell the Bearguard in the mid-1990s, retail was $5.95, so the price has increased considerably, but a can will last many moons. They also make it in brown and black, so be sure to buy the "Natural" if you decide to try it. BearGuard - The Only Leather and Boot Waterproofing Made with Wild Maine Beeswax and Real Bear Fat

 

[Woody Morgan]

Gentlemen, I typically use 1 to 2. 1/8" hard leather over the powder. 1/4 inch hard wool felt wad soaked in beeswax and olive oil. The shot is loaded over this and then another 1/4" hard wool felt soaked in the beeswax and olive oil combination.bfor hot weather shooting I use only one leather over powder was. For cold weather shooting I use 2. All three of my Pedersoli 20's love this combination. Both the flintlock and the caplock.
Word of caution. The Pedersoli 20's are closer to 19 gauges and the standard 5/8" punches will not work as they are too small. I use Osborne 16 mm arch punches in all the Pedersoli 20's. If you use the 5/8" the wads will not be a good snug fit and you will notice it as you ram them home. Also a Chronograph will easily show the difference. For a properly sized .615 20 ga bore the 5/8" punch is fine but the Pedersoli 20's measure about .625 at least mine do.
Rob.

I don't see a #16 punch anywhere including on Osborne's website. What would a metric equivalent be?

wm

 

[user 48702]

I don't see a #16 punch anywhere including on Osborne's website. What would a metric equivalent be?

wm

Woody: Here is a link to another post I made about the leather leather wads. Osborne does make metric punches, but most of the time you have to buy a set, or if you can find a 16mm they are about $50. What I use is a vintage 16 gauge shotshell wad punch, they cut a 21/32" wad which is just a hair larger than the 16mm. If you watch ebay, they show up quite often. Here is a link to a post where I described the punches with a photo so you know what to look for.
.62/20ga Wads Using 16ga Wad Punch

 

[Lfpdlt]

I also do leather strap work and have been using wads made from scrap harness leather in my smoothbore also. I mainly use them as an over powder wad when shooting roundball.

 

[Historian]

No sir I bought mine off eBay. However the Germans and others make excellent punches as well and are usually cheaper. Do a internet type search for 16 mm arch punch. They are usually colored blue. I have these as well. Most are under $20.00 and are made just as good as the Osborne. You need to use one just slightly over bore size to help seal the bore as best as possible. 16 mm is slightly over 19 ga which is what the Pedersoli 20 SXS runs. I then had a local machinest turn down the handle to fit inside a drill press. Works really good!
Rob

 

[user 48702]

No sir I bought mine off eBay. However the Germans and others make excellent punches as well and are usually cheaper. Do a internet type search for 16 mm arch punch. They are usually colored blue. I have these as well. Most are under $20.00 and are made just as good as the Osborne. You need to use one just slightly over bore size to help seal the bore as best as possible. 16 mm is slightly over 19 ga which is what the Pedersoli 20 SXS runs. I then had a local machinest turn down the handle to fit inside a drill press. Works really good!
Rob

I also do leather strap work and have been using wads made from scrap harness leather in my smoothbore also. I mainly use them as an over powder wad when shooting roundball.

Since you do leather work, here's a thought. For round balls, I've been thinking about making a ball end for one of my arbor presses about the diameter of the round ball and seeing if I can mold a flat base leather wad with the same profile as the ball. Not that the ball is going anywhere as is, but with a flat base leather wad and about a 1/8" divot for the ball to rest in, I would hope it would equalize the pressure between wad and ball. Just an idea, but would be interesting to see if there was any difference in accuracy, good or bad. As you know, it doesn't take much pressure to compress harness leather since it is already stuffed with oils and waxes during the tanning process. I've also been taking some scraps of bridle leather where I've long skived the ends of straps, wet them and ran them through a roll press to compress. What started out as a 1/16" thick split is now about the thickness of a dime. When dry, I've been punching out overshot cards, and the finished product is quite hard and stiff.

 

[Woody Morgan]

So #16 = 16mm? Why didntcha say so? Ok. 16mm is .06299" and that is easily available.
Found one on on fleabay for $15 shipped.

wm