Lewis & Clark Rifle Found?

[CoyoteJoe]

Thanks Dan, that seems an excellent analysis of the little know information, I second you at 70-30. :thumbsup:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Dan, as always, well stated and reasonable.

Do keep in mind that the expedition had trouble killing bears with the rifle and, on at least one occasion, had to rely on a musket-armed soldier to kill the grizzly bear that was refusing to die after being shot several times with rifles. Now, the .54 roundball was larger than that used by the contract guns but..... :idunno:

I guess we will never know for sure.

 

[BrownBear]

Dan, as always, well stated and reasonable.

Do keep in mind that the expedition had trouble killing bears with the rifle and, on at least one occasion, had to rely on a musket-armed soldier to kill the grizzly bear that was refusing to die after being shot several times with rifles. Now, the .54 roundball was larger than that used by the contract guns but..... :idunno:

I guess we will never know for sure.

I appreciate your points too, Dan. In the absence of documents, speculation is the only other option, but informed speculation is most valuable.

As for the "efficacy" of 54's for bears, I've paid special attention to those sections every time I've read the journals.

Admittedly the bears around here are much bigger. But the journals combine with my own exposure to bears and local kills to affect my choice of bores. I'm not the least bit confident in my 62's, but usually deer hunt with them or a 58. If I was actually setting out for bear, I doubt I'd use smaller than 75 cal. As it is, if I suspect bear troubles on a particular hunt, I turn around and go home. L&C didn't have that choice, did they? :wink:

 

[Stumpkiller]

Ah, but you know what kind of bears are "out there". Lewis & Clark were headed off having no idea of what a Grizzly Bear was.

The first grizzlies Lewis saw during the expedition were two smaller bears. He and another hunter had easily killed one of them. That day Lewis wrote in his journal that although the Native Americans with their bows and arrows might have problems, the grizzlies were no match for skilled rifleman. He soon changed his mind.

On May 5, William Clark and George Droulliard killed an enormous grizzly bear, with some effort. Clark described it as a “verry large and a turrible looking animal, which we found verry hard to kill we Shot ten Balls into him before we killed him, & 5 of those Balls through his lights.” Lewis estimated the weight of the bear at 500-600 pounds, about twice the size of the average black bear. He noted that after the bear was shot, “he swam more than half the distance across the river to a sandbar & it was at least twenty minutes before he died; he did not attempt to attack, but fled and made the most tremendous roaring from the moment he was shot.” Once the bear finally died, they butchered it for meat, bear oil, and its thick furry skin. Sobered by the size and ferocity of the bear, Lewis wrote, “I find that the curiossity of our party is pretty well satisfyed with rispect to this anamal.”

You're gonna need a bigger gun!

Bigger Boat

 

[BrownBear]

Anyone that wants to have a little fun, go to this page and click on Brown Bear for a pdf about biology and size of coastal grizzlies ("brown bears") and "interior" grizzlies.

You might want to bookmark that page, because there's great info on a whole lot more species.

To whet your appetite, brown bear males can go up to 1500 pounds and interior grizzly males can go up to 500 pounds. A 500 pound grizzly is nothing to sneeze at, but heck, most of the horses I've owned weighed less than 1500 pounds!

Good thing our brown bears are generally more benign than interior grizzlies. If not, guys would be mounting swivel guns before heading into the hills! :rotf:

 

[Rifleman1776]

It is well documented that an air powered rifle was taken on the journey. They killed deer with it but mostly impressed the indians with it's silent killing power. I wonder what velocity was obtained with that rifle.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Modern big bore air rifles of .45 caliber fire a pure lead roundball at a muzzle velocity of about 800 fps, much like a .44 cap & ball revolver. They are far from silent, they make a very loud POP on discharge. It doesn't sound like a normal gun shot but is just as loud.
These modern high pressure big bore air rifles are more powerful than the L&C air gun. They are pressured to over 2000 psi. I seem to recall seeing where the new made replica of a Girandoni air gun, believed to be the L&C gun, was limited to 800 psi and produced a velocity of less than 600 fps.
You may recall there was an accident where an Indian woman was struck in the forehead with a shot from the air gun. People thought she was dead but after some time she revived and seemed to be OK.
The Austrian army used the Girandoni in war and claimed it could penetrate a 1" pine board at 100 yards, but again so can a .44 revolver.
It was the rapid fire repeat shot ability of the air rifle which seemed big medicine to the Indians.

 

[tsmgguy]

The TRS reproduction of Harper's Ferry M1800 rifle #15 is so purposeful, light, and elegant that I believe I'd have been pleased to carry one on a little 3,000 mile stroll.

A 70/30 chance that the 15 rifles carried by the Corps of Discovery were in fact pre-production M1803 rifles is better odds than you'd have been given here just a few years back. Today, the more knowlegable the individual, the better yet those odds become. The experts in the field (Cowan, Keller, & Melot) are completely convinced.

 

[Dphar]

Modern big bore air rifles of .45 caliber fire a pure lead roundball at a muzzle velocity of about 800 fps, much like a .44 cap & ball revolver. They are far from silent, they make a very loud POP on discharge. It doesn't sound like a normal gun shot but is just as loud.
These modern high pressure big bore air rifles are more powerful than the L&C air gun. They are pressured to over 2000 psi. I seem to recall seeing where the new made replica of a Girandoni air gun, believed to be the L&C gun, was limited to 800 psi and produced a velocity of less than 600 fps.
You may recall there was an accident where an Indian woman was struck in the forehead with a shot from the air gun. People thought she was dead but after some time she revived and seemed to be OK.
The Austrian army used the Girandoni in war and claimed it could penetrate a 1" pine board at 100 yards, but again so can a .44 revolver.
It was the rapid fire repeat shot ability of the air rifle which seemed big medicine to the Indians.

The woman was in Pittsburgh IIFC and was simply grazed by the ball when someone Lewis had allowed to handle it had an AD. I believe she was about 50 yards away.
What a lawsuit this would bring today...
Dan

 

[Dphar]

Dan, as always, well stated and reasonable.

Do keep in mind that the expedition had trouble killing bears with the rifle and, on at least one occasion, had to rely on a musket-armed soldier to kill the grizzly bear that was refusing to die after being shot several times with rifles. Now, the .54 roundball was larger than that used by the contract guns but..... :idunno:

I guess we will never know for sure.

The 54 would not be much a stopper on Gbears.
The 69 musket is far more effective probably by a factor of 3.
Gbears, when poorly shot with the first shot can be very difficult to stop with subsequent shots. This has been repeatedly proven regardless of the firearm used. So thinking that problems killing Gbears is an indicator of bore size is probably not valid.
I have no idea how large bears in the east were circa 1800 but the huge bear that L&C killed could have easily been a 500-600 pounder at least in late summer or fall. But bear weights are dependent on the food source at any time of the year. Bears out on the prairie get a lot of exercise and the food source is not all that consistent I suspect. Bears also are far bigger when there is no scale to weigh them on, especially those killed in modern times.
A 2000 pound "internet" bear likely weighs 800-1000 before he is shot and photographed.

This said a 300 pound Gbear is easily capable of killing a human in a very short space of time.
Even the "small" Montana Gbears can take a yearling steer over fence without breaking a wire or pulling a staple out.
L&C commented that in similar sized animals the internal organs of the Gbear was about twice that of a Black Bear.

Dan

 

[BrownBear]

Bears also are far bigger when there is no scale to weigh them on, especially those killed in modern times.
A 2000 pound "internet" bear likely weighs 800-1000 before he is shot and photographed.

Excellent point. Just like an 8' bear can turn into a 10' bear if you yank hard enough on the green hide.

In the last decade or so ADF&G has been using their contract helicopter to lift and weigh bears they dart and tag. Highly instructive!

 

[peregrinator]

http://www.icollector.com/U-S-Model...y-Arsenal-under-the-direction-of-J_i14158729#

I was surprised to discover that this rifle rather quietly sold at auction last October. It is an interesting example and I would love to see photos of the RS's version of this. So far I've had an 1803 HF and am working on the Stith (sp?) version contract rifle. Why not build another?
Best,
William

 

[Rasch Chronicles]

Guys,

every time i see HF, I think Harbor Freight...

Seriously though, I've read in several accounts that when ordnance boards convened, there were usually multiple copies of the weapon in question available for inspection and firing. I just happened to read about the Ferguson Rifle trials and he had at least eight, maybe more. I just don't remember exactly.

Again, speculation, but there might have been many prototypes sitting on a rack for just such an occasion. Six months isn't very long, and I think, we might conclude that the idea for the 1803 might have started quite some time before the L&C expedition was even considered. The 1800 model might just have been part of the prototype runs etc...

Again, just conjecture and speculation.

Albert

 

[robinghewitt]

The air rifle is at the U.S. Army War College. Here's a link which describes the finding of the rifle:

Air Rifle

Scott

"The heavy flat mainspring extends along the forward two thirds of the lock plate".

I don't understand. If that is the main spring surely it should pull down on the tumbler, not up. It's the wrong way round :td:

 

[mmahlock]

Squire, like you I was confused by the figures showing the firing sequence. Until I got to Figure 20 and 21.

The furthest end of the main spring to the rear of the main spring fulcrum rides on a roller attached to the hammer to the rear of the tumbler/hammer pivot. When cocked, the tumbler/hammer force the main spring down. When the trigger is pulled the compressed main spring provides the energy to force the tumbler/hammer to rotate very rapidly which causes the wedge on the tumbler to rapidly push the striker pin against the valve face through the striker latch before the wedge is disengaged from the striker latch allowing the valve spring to close the valve.

At least that is way I see it in the figures.

Anyone else got an ideas?

 

[anj4de]

...should be in the Smithonian IMHO, but with the current cash situation over there probaly not possible right now...I wonder how much it sold for?

cheers
Uwe

 

[Col. Batguano]

I saw a fairly nice model 1803 sell on GB a year or so ago for about $1800. That one had an 1807 lock date, so this one probably went for 2-3x that amount. Just a guess though.

 

[anj4de]

:shocked2: only 2 -3 times more...! If it really was with Lewis and Clark it falls in line with Bowie's knife, Crocett's rifle, Briger's Hawken, and Patton's Colts, etc...

 

[BrownBear]

Along with the axe George Washington used to hew the cherry tree. :rotf: