Load for Uberti Walker Revolver

[Smokerr]

An Open Top or even a Top Strap design is not a semi automatic. It ain't got no springs in the recoil.

 

[nick_1]

I am simply pointing out that without actually doing the testing you don't know how long it will last. My Gunsmith at the time had learned his trade working for colt doing R&D work . He told me that whenever they made a change the prototype went downstairs and had 30,000 rounds put through it. As a small independent gunsmith he simply could not afford to do that kind of testing. Along came myself shooting 1k rounds a week and his designs started to break. It was a great learning experience for both of us. Having had two open top replicas literally fall apart I do have some doubts about the system. Granted the two that I broke were brassers but they were only .36cal . That certainly did show that when the arbor gets loose the whole thing is useless.

 

[M. De Land]

So if I am getting this right you are basically doing a press fit on the wedge in thickness? And using a feeler gauge each time you assemble the revolver? This is the same B.S. that Uberti tried with a "fix" for the arbor problem by making the arbor fit so tight you needed a mallet to get the two pieces to separate. It solved nothing, Walkers were still beating themselves into 4lb paperweights. If you want to believe that making a thicker wedge is gonna fix a short arbor rock on brother. With a corrected arbor you don't need feeler gauges because the arbor length is already set and determines barrel/cylinder gap simply by seating the wedge...as it was originally designed to do. So why is this so hard to understand? Short arbor equals not having the same gun each time it's assembled. Properly seated and fitted arbor equals same gun each time it's put together. Simple. The pistols that you need a feeler gauge to set the barrel/cylinder gap on are not set up correctly plain and simple. That spring on the wedge is a simple solution to loss prevention when taking the gun apart and that is it;s only function. Mike's screw with a flat ground on it is another one. Actual fit of the wedge should be from front to back rather than top to bottom. A wedge bearing can be fitted to the end of the arbor to compensate for wear to wedge as well.

I can see from your wordy diatribe you are not as well informed as you think about wedge -arbor- barrel , making/ fitting and how they react/move in relation to one another. It's often hard for folks to realize there is almost always more than one way to skin the same cat when they have discovered one way to accomplish a goal. I've not tested the wedge on my Walker so I cannot say it will work without fail by itself on them but it seems to have on the 60s that are not end fit and I know for a fact it will at the very least aid the end fit fix on all of them, good fit on all axis always does. They are friction fit not jamb fit and come loose with a single tap.
The hardened tool steel also resists deformation better than does factory wedges which is a major factor in barrel gap increase.
The spring-less wedge is still screw head captive to the barrel in the blind ended trough and are more secure than when spring captive alone. It accomplishes all the same goals without a spring hence being more simple to make.

 

[45D]

I am simply pointing out that without actually doing the testing you don't know how long it will last. My Gunsmith at the time had learned his trade working for colt doing R&D work . He told me that whenever they made a change the prototype went downstairs and had 30,000 rounds put through it. As a small independent gunsmith he simply could not afford to do that kind of testing. Along came myself shooting 1k rounds a week and his designs started to break. It was a great learning experience for both of us. Having had two open top replicas literally fall apart I do have some doubts about the system. Granted the two that I broke were brassers but they were only .36cal . That certainly did show that when the arbor gets loose the whole thing is useless.

I doubt anyone would live long enough to LOAD a cap gun 30,000 times!!
In 10 years I've not had to "reestablish" correct arbor length once done. That includes all my "cowboy" shooters.

Mike

 

[45D]

I can see from your wordy diatribe you are not as well informed as you think about wedge -arbor- barrel making and fitting. It's often hard for folks to realize there is almost always more than one way to skin the same cat when they have discovered one way to accomplish a goal. I've not tested the wedge on my Walker so I cannot say it will work without fail by itself on them but it seems to have on the 60s that are not end fit and I know for a fact it will at the very least aid the fix on all of them, good fit on all axis always does. They are friction fit not jamb fit and come loose with a single tap.
The spring-less wedge is still screw head captive to the barrel in the blind ended trough and are more secure than when spring captive alone. It accomplishes all the same goals without a spring hence being more simple to make.

Nope, a "perfect" wedge isn't the design and won't last with max charges. An end fit arbor with a "driven in" wedge will in fact last as long as the shooter installs it correctly each time. To keep from being "wordy", i refer you to my post in reference to Nick just above.

Mike

 

[45D]

Next week I'll be setting up a Dragoon conversion for bear hunting.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

I doubt anyone would live long enough to LOAD a cap gun 30,000 times!!
In 10 years I've not had to "reestablish" correct arbor length once done. That includes all my "cowboy" shooters.

Mike

Nope, a "perfect" wedge isn't the design and won't last with max charges. An end fit arbor with a "driven in" wedge will in fact last as long as the shooter installs it correctly each time. To keep from being "wordy", i refer you to my post in reference to Nick just above.

Mike

You may be right with the Walker platform but a well fit, stronger/tougher wedge certainly is an improvement over factory offerings and can only add to end fitting support.

 

[D Yager]

I am not sure what kind of stuff Mr Deland works on but maybe it would be best if he sticks to more modern designs cause he sure as heck doesn't understand the open tops.

 

[45D]

You may be right with the Walker platform but a well fit, stronger/tougher wedge certainly is an improvement over factory offerings and can only add to end fitting support.

With heavy enough loads or enough time, the "harder material" will beat itself into the softer material. So, wedge slots in the arbor and barrel will have material moving. See it all the time with older revolvers. If you fix them all like they're supposed to be, you won't need a "supper wedge" or feeler gauges to check everything while you shoot.
It's kinda like being tired of your exhaust bolts on your weedeater loosening so you drill holes for safety wire only to have the bolts break!!
Just set the revolvers up like there supposed to be and there won't be any problems.

Mike

 

[D Yager]

What Mike said! Plus set it up right! Like Mike said.

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

Next week I'll be setting up a Dragoon conversion for bear hunting.

Mike

wow. I hope u post some pics. All this discussion yaw are having is mind boggling to me.But I love it. lol. keeps me thinking enjoy it very much.

 

[M. De Land]

With heavy enough loads or enough time, the "harder material" will beat itself into the softer material. So, wedge slots in the arbor and barrel will have material moving. See it all the time with older revolvers. If you fix them all like they're supposed to be, you won't need a "supper wedge" or feeler gauges to check everything while you shoot.
It's kinda like being tired of your exhaust bolts on your weedeater loosening so you drill holes for safety wire only to have the bolts break!!
Just set the revolvers up like there supposed to be and there won't be any problems.

Mike

I have had that very thought but have yet to see it happen. My thinking is that the tougher wedge material does not deform and the full fitting support is more than adequate to prevent the scenario you describe. The trick is to get the wedge to not move from rebounding off the front of the arbor slot and creating a space for it to get a run and pound itself into distortion. The end fit arbor supports this effectively and so does a wedge that fits tight and does not deform. The vertically tight wedge fit apparently aids in stabilizing the wedge movement from what I'm seeing in guns without an end fit arbor. We still have to factor in all the guns that are still functioning after decades of use without end fitting , new wedges or our help.
The end fitting of a hard set screw against the wedge to take up deformation spacing, threaded through the front of the arbor , would present the same effect as a harder/tougher wedge that doesn't move, with less area of contact to resist deformation.

 

[M. De Land]

I understand what you're saying and describing but at 23Kpsi I'm pretty sure the linear force is dominant over vertical. The flat bearing surface for the back side of the wedge ( barrel slot) and single point front keeps the wedge "in place" (vertically). Not sure the "wedge alone" is the answer. So far, the "wedge under tension" has proven to be enough for the ammo I'm using.

Mike

Yes, I'm increasingly becoming convinced both end fitting and harder and more closely fit wedges are the way to go especially with the Walker. I was looking over my Walker factory wedge and it leaves quite a gap at the top of the barrel slot........... quite a loose fit in my view. I'll likely make a new one for it in the future.

 

[M. De Land]

So if I am getting this right you are basically doing a press fit on the wedge in thickness? And using a feeler gauge each time you assemble the revolver? This is the same B.S. that Uberti tried with a "fix" for the arbor problem by making the arbor fit so tight you needed a mallet to get the two pieces to separate. It solved nothing, Walkers were still beating themselves into 4lb paperweights. If you want to believe that making a thicker wedge is gonna fix a short arbor rock on brother. With a corrected arbor you don't need feeler gauges because the arbor length is already set and determines barrel/cylinder gap simply by seating the wedge...as it was originally designed to do. So why is this so hard to understand? Short arbor equals not having the same gun each time it's assembled. Properly seated and fitted arbor equals same gun each time it's put together. Simple. The pistols that you need a feeler gauge to set the barrel/cylinder gap on are not set up correctly plain and simple. That spring on the wedge is a simple solution to loss prevention when taking the gun apart and that is it;s only function. Mike's screw with a flat ground on it is another one. Actual fit of the wedge should be from front to back rather than top to bottom. A wedge bearing can be fitted to the end of the arbor to compensate for wear to wedge as well.

Two things you have wrong. The wedges aren't worn their distorted and threading the end of an arbor weakens it. Also adding a hard set screw to push tighten the wedge has the same effect as making a harder wedge with the exception a properly fit wedge full width subtends more contact surface area than does a round set screw seat.
The wedge fit primarily is back of slot on both sides of the barrel and front of slot in the arbor, There needs to be a few thousands wedge clearance on the back of the arbor slot and front of both barrel slots. End fitting the arbor along with a vertically friction fit wedge prevents any movement for and aft thus stabilizing the wedge movement from shot rebound and distortion. You will find that a wedge that fits snug vertically and properly hardened does a better job of support than one that is soft and has a sloppy fit in the barrel/arbor slots especially when the arbor is not end fit.

 

[45D]

The trick is to get the wedge to not move from rebounding off the front of the arbor slot and creating a space for it to get a run and pound itself into distortion.

It's not a trick. It's DRIVING the wedge in to pull the barrel assy against the end of the arbor. At that point, the wedge can't move. Therefore there is no "rebounding". Something has to move first before it can "re-bound". The only wedges that get distorted are loose ones or soft ones (which is pretty rare).

The vertically tight wedge fit apparently aids in stabilizing the wedge movement from what I'm seeing in guns without an end fit arbor.

I wouldn't know. I don't make custom wedges but all open top revolvers leave here with correct arbor length and no wedge movement.

We still have to factor in all the guns that are still functioning after decades of use without end fitting , new wedges or our help.

I don't factor in any of those. The main FACT is that they are built wrong. They would be rejected by Colt and they wouldn't leave my shop.
"Still functioning" after what? You don't know the history of about all of them. They may have been shot 5 or 6 times. They may have never had more than powder puff loads in them . . . You can say whatever you want but it's pure conjecture.
My own experience was battered wedges and material moved ( I shot max loads all the time. Pretty much still do!) My experience now (with much harsher ammo) with a correct setup is NO battering and NO material movement. Not to mention 100's of customers with the same experience. So, no real reason to change.

The end fitting of a hard set screw against the wedge to take up deformation spacing, threaded through the front of the arbor , would present the same effect as a harder/tougher wedge that doesn't move, with less area of contact to resist deformation.

The bearing is mainly there for MY adjustment after "dialing in" of the endshake spec. It just happens to allow the customers an adjustable wedge positioning feature. If the wedge interferes with re-holstering, you can adjust it in more.
As stated, there is no wedge distortion, the wedges of the last 10 yrs or so are plenty hard enough.

Of course, if you enjoy making wedges then make wedges.

Mike

 

[D Yager]

And once again we are hearing from an armchair expert. I will take Mikes suggestion about the wedge fit and my own experience over a guy that obviously doesn't understand the platform. Maybe Mr. Deland should stick to working on something other than percussion revolvers.

 

[45D]

Yes, I'm increasing becoming convinced both end fitting and harder and more closely fit wedges are the way to go especially with the Walker. I was looking over my Walker factory wedge and it leaves quite a gap at the top of the barrel slot........... quite a loose fit in my view. I'll likely make a new one for it in the future.

Well, I don't believe Colt thought that to be the case and I've not seen any evidence of such on originals. Of course anyone can do what they think might be an upgrade but it's never proven to be a problem to me. Again, my revolvers have no signs of any problems, the wedges are perfectly fine with no dimensional change whatsoever. I'm not sure what any advantage there would be with a "better" wedge than what's there already.

Any space seen top and / or bottom doesn't count for "loose", only fore and aft.

Mike

 

[45D]

Two things you have wrong. The wedges aren't worn their distorted and threading the end of an arbor weakens it. Also adding a hard set screw to push tighten the wedge has the same effect as making a harder wedge with the exception a properly fit wedge full width subtends more contact surface area than does a round set screw seat.

Two things -
1- "distorted" wedges get that way because they were loose. Tight wedges don't get beat up.

2- threading the end of an arbor has absolutely no effect for its intended purpose. Maybe you could explain how it would? There are thousands of open top revolvers with this type mod just from folks reading the Pettifogger articles a dozen+ yrs ago, not to mention well over a thousand revolvers that I've set up.

And
3rd- (3 things) if you ever get to inspect an original, look for the witness mark from the wedge on the forward surface of the slot in the arbor. It'll be just a spot (usually on the lefthand side), not a big or "full width" patch. Since the wedge is planted on the back of the barrel slot on both sides the front contact should be a smal point, not a big patch. A large contact surface on the front would encourage the wedge to "walk". Therefore, the smooth, adjustable bearing surface gives a good locking point of contact for my revolvers and those I've set up.

Mike

 

[SPQR70AD]

what it comes down to is the open top is a junk design that must be sent out to be modified then after that you must be a swiss watchmaker to put it together so it doesnt fall apart

 

[M. De Land]

With heavy enough loads or enough time, the "harder material" will beat itself into the softer material. So, wedge slots in the arbor and barrel will have material moving. See it all the time with older revolvers. If you fix them all like they're supposed to be, you won't need a "supper wedge" or feeler gauges to check everything while you shoot.
It's kinda like being tired of your exhaust bolts on your weedeater loosening so you drill holes for safety wire only to have the bolts break!!
Just set the revolvers up like there supposed to be and there won't be any problems.

Mike

You might want to actually make the described wedge and give it a try before expounding about how it is to hard, can't work and has no advantage!
And yes, when you actually make, heat treat , fit new gun parts and try them out I supposed one can be referred to as an armchair experimenter, guilty as charged. I guess that makes Linebaugh, Gallegar and Bowen arm chair experimenters as they successfully take their revolvers far past any factory design parameters .
The whole reason you have to make the wedge tightening adjustment nut is because it will or has moved, distort/battered and needs taking up for it not to get worse.
Some wedge milling and heat treating photos for those who are interested. A-2 has a two stage heat treat protocol.
The wedge is wrapped in brown paper and heat treat foil to keep from oxidizing and scaling. The paper burns up and the ash seals from oxygen migration. One could use O-1 alloy but the wedge would then need to be made oversize and surface ground to final dimension to account for dimensional wharpage at the oil quench. A-2 air quenches and is very dimension-ally stable.