Loading with the frizzen closed?

[biliff]

pre-event checks

Never been to a range or rondy that required "pre-event checks". What a bunch of rule nazis.

I hear those reenactors REQUIRE the use of flash guards on their firearms. Never had any body tell me that at a range or rondy.
What a bunch of rule freaks.



Those reenactors don't even shoot live ammo. What army fired blanks? I've met reenact ors who have never fired a ball. Hell,they're not even allowed to use a ramrod. Talk about lack of historical authenticity.

...what a waste.

Note: I don't do reenactments, but apparently they have their own unique set of rules, that they live by in order to safely participate in the event. Just like the target shooters and the rondies and the hunters. I have the feeling that the OP has never participated in any of them or tried to understand them.

Note to Claude: The "nazi" stuff was to make a point.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

pre-event checks

Never been to a range or rondy that required "pre-event checks". What a bunch of rule nazis.

You've probably also never been to a place where you had in excess of 1000 people moving in close order too. With that many folks it makes sense to do some safety checks. Never been to a range or rendezvous that required that either.

I hear those reenactors REQUIRE the use of flash guards on their firearms. Never had any body tell me that at a range or rondy.
What a bunch of rule freaks.

Yeah, you'll thing that's a silly thing to do right up until you are standing shoulder to shoulder firing your flintlock without it and you catch the exhaust from the touch hole of the fellow to the left of you. It peppers you with burning black powder on the side of your face. Been there, done that, don't recommend it.

A number of the events I would attend didn't require them on rifles because rifles are not commonly used in close order. Nonetheless, you wanted to make sure you were at least 6-feet away from anyone not using a flash guard. Certainly don't need it for hunting, but you do for reenactments. By the way Mike Lee (gunsmith) has some photos of flash guards that were used in the 18th century. I posted those on this board a number of years ago.

Those reenactors don't even shoot live ammo. What army fired blanks? I've met reenact ors who have never fired a ball. Hell,they're not even allowed to use a ramrod. Talk about lack of historical authenticity.

I hope that part was really tongue in cheek. Obviously we aren't using live ammo at those events because we are not trying to KILL anybody!

I already told you in my first post why the ramrods have to stay in their pipes so I won't repeat that.

Note: I don't do reenactments, but apparently they have their own unique set of rules, that they live by in order to safely participate in the event. Just like the target shooters and the rondies and the hunters. I have the feeling that the OP has never participated in any of them or tried to understand them.

Certainly each of those have their own rules so things run smoothly and safely. Don't know what you mean by OP?? If you're referring to me, yes I have participated in all of those.

Note to Claude: The "nazi" stuff was to make a point.

Not worth addressing.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[Artificer]

Most reenactors use flash guards with Flint Muskets or Rifles because history has taught if you don't, the soldier on your right MAY get a flash of powder in his left eyeball and possibly or would blind him. (At most military reenactments, they are required and I fully agree with that.) For many years in the 17th and 18th centuries, soldiers were thoroughly drilled to turn their faces to the right while firing, BECAUSE it was so common with burnt out vent holes in muskets during the period. They darn sure could have used flash guards, but they weren’t invented yet, to my knowledge.

Hammer stalls (the authentic term) or Frizzen Stalls WERE in use by at least the French and Indian War, if not earlier. This because Sentries had to walk their appointed rounds with loaded muskets and using a hammer stall was an additional safety feature above merely relying on the half cock notch with a primed pan. Other than that, soldiers normally did not load their muskets until ordered to do so. Military Light Infantry and Scouting Parties MAY have had loaded weapons when they were doing reconnaissance and most likely they also had the hammer stalls in place until contact with the enemy. So even the Original Military during the 18th and 19th century DID NOT fully trust the half cock notch at all times ”“ even when a sentry was only “walking/marching his post.” Something important to think about.

Yes, the 18th and early 19th century Drill Manuals called for biting the cartridge, then priming the pan and shutting the hammer/frizzen down over the primed pan, before loading the cartridge in the bore. However after priming the pan and when “casting about” to place the butt of the musket on the ground, they were normally taught to place the musket butt on the ground with care. This so as not to set off the priming pan charge by hitting the butt on the ground so hard that the sear would slip off the half cock notch or break the half cock notch or sear tip. When one is well drilled, one can load VERY fast while still taking care not to hit the musket butt on the ground too hard. It becomes almost a reflexive act with enough practice. So even the period military was conscious that the Musket could go off and unintentionally wound/kill their own comrades if not handled as safely as possible ”“ even in actual combat.

But we must never forget that 18th and 19th century soldiers (as well as soldiers right up to the present day) had/have to do many things that are downright unsafe in combat, that even the modern Military won’t tolerate on a Military Range for live fire practice. This is true both on standard target ranges AND field firing/ranges. So don’t ever believe it is just civilian ranges that won’t tolerate what they consider to be unsafe practices.

If you wish to practice early loading methods with live rounds AND no one but you has any responsibility for what can happen, that is entirely up to you. Do it on your own land or in a place that no one but you has any responsibility for what may happen. One is not being responsible when one asks or expects anyone else to share the responsibility, when one wishes to do something others deem unsafe.

Gus

 

[AZbpBurner]

Nearly 50 years ago, I was taught how to load a flintlock by an elderly gent who looked to have grown up with the old rifle he was firing. In fact it belonged to his father before him.

I was taught to always close the frizzen prior to pouring the powder charge down the barrel. The reason was to minimize draft blowing thru the touch hole.

As a matter of utmost safety, he also cautioned to NEVER prime the pan until after the powder and ball were seated.

 

[tenngun]

It's not always easy having someone at a range tell you what to do and how to do it. Tends to run crosswise to the grain. After all, we are independent minded folks. So I try to think of the gun range as a military type situation. I do what they tell me to do because they are in charge. And if the rules stick in my craw I try to find another place to shoot.

I agree, when you're in someone else's house follow their rules. Simple.

Agree, I blow down the barrel tween shots, but don't try when I'm around those that don't.
Ultimently you are responsible for your own safty, I tried priming first with a ball loaded cartridge years ago, but wouldn't try it now. When the rule is load fast or get a foot of enemy steel in your belly you prime first. When shooting paper or deer, I'll put safty first.

 

[biliff]

The whole post was tongue in cheek.

I understand the need for all those different rules, reenacting, target shooting or hunting. My point was the OP didn't seem to understand it.

"OP" is original poster, so no, I wasn't referring to you.

 

[M. De Land]

I think if a damp patch were run down the bore after every shot with a flash hole diameter pick in place, as a matter of course, there would never be a hot ember problem and frizzen position would be a none issue from a safety perspective.
A properly fit wire pick in the flash hole is about as safe as it can be made in my opinion. Mike D.

 

[Claude Mathis]

You return to this thread a year later to insult the members? Bad form. :nono:

I am truly at a loss in figuring out what form of reality you people belong to, likely just the rifle range specie of muzzle loader with a dozen different gimmicks and taking over 2 minutes to load a round.
The rammer issue has been addressed by the parks service and the full loading and firing manual is shortened in that regard, but do you honestly think that the tens of thousands of flintlock owners around the country attending hundreds of events actually subscribe to the "prime last" philosophy you spread here?
It's almost laughable but at the same time saddening what your kind is doing to this hobby.

Springing rammers and an exercise in which the musket is put on half cock and inspected to make sure it would not go off at half cock is all a part of pre-event checks during which the state parks representative is present.

I wonder if even half of the users on this forum know military firelocks were equipped with a half cock notch as a safety feature.
Even more amusing was the lack of awareness of the uses of a hammerstall.

Stick to the rifle range.

...what a waste

 

[Twisted_1in66]

The whole post was tongue in cheek.

I understand the need for all those different rules, reenacting, target shooting or hunting. My point was the OP didn't seem to understand it.

"OP" is original poster, so no, I wasn't referring to you.

Thanks Bakeoven Bill, I should have guessed.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[dikman]

Seems to me that if we're not doing it the OP's way then we're all doing it wrong. Guess I'll still be doing it wrong, then, 'cos when it comes to dealing with BP/muzzleloaders one can't be too careful.

I also just realised that I've occasionally come across this type of posting before, on other forums, and the word "troll" inevitably pops up. Someone posts an asinine statement, designed to get people's dander up, then disappears.

 

[nit wit]

UM
The range safety Nazis are there to keep some dumb ass from shooting you. Von stueben did not have to worry about lawyers and liability. Clubs need insurance to continue to have people with no place to shoot shoot. These range nazis have given much time and money to be trained and certified to serve ungrateful people. Go buy land like some of us have and you can shoot off your thumb and fingers and it will be no liability to anyone but you! If not be thankful you have a range to shoot at and be thankful you have range officers. Ever thought of becoming one yourself and donating your time? I didn't think so.
Nit Wit

 

[coloradoclyde]

Seems to me that if we're not doing it the OP's way then we're all doing it wrong. Guess I'll still be doing it wrong, then, 'cos when it comes to dealing with BP/muzzleloaders one can't be too careful.

I also just realised that I've occasionally come across this type of posting before, on other forums, and the word "troll" inevitably pops up. Someone posts an asinine statement, designed to get people's dander up, then disappears.

Yep!
They also use a baiting technique to start arguments. No meaningful conversation or debate can take place during an argument. Those arguing never ask questions or change their view point.

 

[vulture]

There is something I don't understand in this topic. I and my wife don't smoke, therefore our home doesn't smell of cigarettes, and we want it to stay that way, so when someone who does smoke comes into our home we expect them to abide by our standards as long as they are here, when they leave they are free to do as they please. I have always felt that this was true with all other aspects of life. Where ever I may find myself it is my responsibility to understand and abide by the rules existent at that place. No one says that I have to like those rules, or not find them over bearing and restrictive, but my feelings about such rules has no bearing on my observance of them, after all I am a guest there, be it a national park, private range, national forest, or private business. What matters to me, and is of the things I hole dear is that I don't have to frequent any place I am not happy at, I can take my business or activity some place else, that is my right. As I see it the argument is not just about what is hc, but about being able to do what we want where we want in the name of hc'ness, regardless of the rules that may exist there, and that is just not the society I care to live in. I'll shut up now.

 

[Dean2]

There is something I don't understand in this topic. I and my wife don't smoke, therefore our home doesn't smell of cigarettes, and we want it to stay that way, so when someone who does smoke comes into our home we expect them to abide by our standards as long as they are here, when they leave they are free to do as they please. I have always felt that this was true with all other aspects of life. Where ever I may find myself it is my responsibility to understand and abide by the rules existent at that place. No one says that I have to like those rules, or not find them over bearing and restrictive, but my feelings about such rules has no bearing on my observance of them, after all I am a guest there, be it a national park, private range, national forest, or private business. What matters to me, and is of the things I hole dear is that I don't have to frequent any place I am not happy at, I can take my business or activity some place else, that is my right. As I see it the argument is not just about what is hc, but about being able to do what we want where we want in the name of hc'ness, regardless of the rules that may exist there, and that is just not the society I care to live in. I'll shut up now.

VERY well said.

 

[pargent]

Well well
1 Hamerstalls were for recruits and third rate colonials .
2 The light inf. way of tap loading then primeing from a light inf. horn is much faster way of rapid fire .This by the way is with live service loads and not blanks, I will also say that this method is not for the inexperienced and is something that I DO FOR DEMOS ONLY .

 

[Artificer]

Cuthbertson wrote "...On Service, leather Hammer-stalls are undoubtedly an advantage to a Battalion, when loaded, and resting on their Arms, as accidents may be prevented by having them fixed upon the hammers of the Firelocks..."
(page 93, XIII of "System for the Complete Interior Management and Oeconomy of a Battalion of Infantry")

The following are orders for the Royal Artillery Regiment, issued at Philadelphia on 2 June 1778 in anticipation of the march to New York which culminated in the Battle of Monmouth. "It is left to their [officers] discretion in time of real Action to disencumber such men as they may think proper entirely of them [arms], taking care that they be lodged in their Ammunition Carriages and to prevent any possible Accident happening therefrom, thumb stalls have been ordered to be provided which the men are constantly to keep on the hammer of their pieces except when posted centrys." Source: Great Britain, Royal Artillery Regiment Library, Woolwich, Brigade Orderly Book, James Pattison Papers.

(Note from Gus: Before my old computer crashed, I had a couple of quotes that reported hammer stalls to be on the locks for Sentries, until/unless they had to actually fire. Perhaps this is a case where there was enough "enemy" threat to justify taking off the hammer stalls?)

"On the morning of 21 December 1808 the 2/23rd Foot was approaching the village of Sahagun when firing was heard in front. Lieutenant Colonel Wyatt immediately gave the order, 'Off hammer caps' which, Thorpe recorded, 'caused a thrilling sensation of delight, expectation, and ten thousand other thoughts and feelings impossible to describe'. (11) This was followed by the command, 'Prime, and load!' and 'the ramrods rattled gaily in the barrels, bayonets were fixed, and as if their musical jingle had raised the spirits of all', the battalion moved forward at the 'double quick', eager to see action."

A fairly late reference in the 2nd (Queen's) Regt standing orders 1802 that may merely muddy the waters further.

"Serjeants, bands and drums, to be always provided with white leather swordknots and gloves; the men with black leather cap for the hammer of the firelock."

Through quote from article by laurence Spring, pp31-2 First Empire Magazine 38

Some of the above information from: http://2nd95thrifles.myfastforum.org/archive/hammer-caps-frizzen-covers__o_t__t_1092.html

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oh, the use of hammer stalls is also mentioned in the following original documentation, though I do not have a copy of it to give a quote.

Simes, Thomas. A Military Course for the Government and Conduct of a Battalion (London: 1777)

Gus

 

[pargent]

With the 1st line troops they lasted about as long as it took to issue them ,an unnecessary pestilence is the term most often used .

 

[Artificer]

The above units were not "first line" units? I doubt that in the case of the 2/23rd Foot, especially.
Gus

 

[pargent]

Green Regimental facings I believe old boy not Royal Blue .