Loads in a original rem 1858

[Crypt0manic]

WIlliam O. & nkbj-

I read the link a little more carefully, and this is what I've gleaned from the wording as to the loading method the guy was using, post #15. It's a bit excessive, if you ask me lol

SDSmlf's post (#18) he measured how much powder the chamber can hold up to the mouth, which was 50gr. of 3F, presumably, you could smash a ball on that and it might work, or you'd have to go to a finer powder, like what some of the better cartridge makers were using originally.

The OP was talking about loadings to use in his original, and he's more or less settled back on typical charges of BP with balls and bullets, due to it being original and not wanting to ruin it with +p loadings, since it's all he can get in his country . but from his description of that revolver, he has an almost pristine condition Remington, which would be a prized possession in my opinion !

Yeah man it's in a very good shape no rust etc! I didn't get tho what you mean with +P? Sorry i'm new to all this.

If you mean pyrodex P i didn't get it. I got some RS....i did it kinda wrong buying it since i didn't know the difference back then but i heard i can shoot revolvers with it as well so i'm thinking to try it out today! Since i'm kinda curious! But probably i stay to BP since of what i been reading it seems better!

 

[SDSmlf]

Is that the max volume on a 1858 Remington ?
I didn't think they held that much. I've not checked reproduction 1858's for max as I'm always measuring chamber length versus bullet length and loading accordingly but really, I thought they held less than a Dragoon.

I thought it was 30 grains.

Here is a repost of what I posted in this thread a long time ago (last Friday) so it easy to understand why most don’t remember. I measured TOTAL CHAMBER CAPACITIES of an ORIGINAL and REPRODUCTION 1858. With no ball in the chamber, the capacity of each when FILLED TO THE FACE or MOUTH of the CYLINDER was 50 grains of powder by weight.

Only thing I am sure about is that I would NOT TRUST any load data from whoever published that chart. Own original and reproduction 1858s. Quite some time ago, out of curiosity, compared the chamber capacity of an original to a reproduction and found them to be very close, about 50 grains (by weight) of 3F each, when loaded to the mouth of cylinder chamber with powder. Now if one were really dedicated and put the effort into it, imagine they could compress the load to the point of getting a ball below the face of cylinder, and the gun would go into battery and could be shot with that load. Not going to try that with an original, as they don’t make them anymore.

First two photographs are of the original’s cylinder weigh in, the next two are of the reproduction’s.
View attachment 89613View attachment 89614View attachment 89615View attachment 89616

Will wait for your test results. Good luck.

 

[nkbj]

If the chambers will contain 50 grains you might be able to settle down the column of powder by compressing it with the round ball. In the process you'd be form fitting the balls to the shape of the chambers and that might not be bad at all. If I was defending myself that's sure enough the way I'd want to do it.

 

[Crypt0manic]

If the chambers will contain 50 grains you might be able to settle down the column of powder by compressing it with the round ball. In the process you'd be form fitting the balls to the shape of the chambers and that might not be bad at all. If I was defending myself that's sure enough the way I'd want to do it.

I guess not with a original one tho? I mean they might break easier then the replicas?

 

[Crypt0manic]

@rodwha @SDSmlf @Wildrangeringreen @William O. @nkbj @TFoley @Steel Guitar @springfield art @SmokepoleSam

Sorry if i missed tagging a few people it's kinda hard on phone.

Just wanna make you know how wonderful our gun laws are at sweden.

So i took everything with me like the gun, powder, bullets and all these stuff and went out to shoot today to try out the conical bullets but since i live in sweden i don't have anywhere to shoot.

I found out i can't shoot at shooting gallery after 8:00 or before 10:00 at morning or shoot standing up 25-30 meters from target since i have to sit at a certain place 90 meters from where targets stand up. So i took my **** and got back home again really angry.

Love this safe and wonderful country of freedom with our wonderful gun laws where ONLY CRIMINAL gang members run around with AK47 all days while coward police hides from them instead of catching them and i can't even own a bp replica is the reason why i got a original one.

So lets hope i can practice shooting my damn bp gun i payed over 2400$ for one day before i die since i live in sweden. I've had it in around 1 month and only shot around 3 cylinders with it in over 1 month time because everything is a damn problem when it comes to firearms here even BP guns.

**** if i could i would pack my **** and move to US tomorrow or right now......


So everyone here...STAND UP FOR YOUR GUN RIGHTS. Otherwise you might end up like me....

I will try to shoot some tomorrow if i can with conical and rb, black powder and pyrodex RS for curiousity and update everyone how that went....

 

[rodwha]

Pyrodex RS is the 2F version. No need to reduce charges when using rifle grade powder. You may even find it works better with your conicals. It is a little dirtier than 3F.

What you’ll want to do is start at 25 grns and see how much chamber space is left over. Increase by 2.5 grn increments if you can and check for accuracy. I’d suspect with 25 grns of RS you might be on the low end of .44 Spl power, which is effective.

I have a 2013 Pietta NMA reamed to .449” so close to that of an Uberti and with 33 weighed grains of 3F Olde Eynsford black powder I have room for a bullet ~.525” left for a bullet and the necessary space for an overloaded card, wiggle room for charge variance, and a pinch of room needed to keep the nose of my wide meplat bullets from being gas cut. In this amount of space I estimate my bullet will be close to 240 grns. Not knowing the bullet in question I’d venture to guess 30 grns is about your max charge.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Pyrodex RS is the 2F version. No need to reduce charges when using rifle grade powder. You may even find it works better with your conicals. It is a little dirtier than 3F.

What you’ll want to do is start at 25 grns and see how much chamber space is left over. Increase by 2.5 grn increments if you can and check for accuracy. I’d suspect with 25 grns of RS you might be on the low end of .44 Spl power, which is effective.

I have a 2013 Pietta NMA reamed to .449” so close to that of an Uberti and with 33 weighed grains of 3F Olde Eynsford black powder I have room for a bullet ~.525” left for a bullet and the necessary space for an overloaded card, wiggle room for charge variance, and a pinch of room needed to keep the nose of my wide meplat bullets from being gas cut. In this amount of space I estimate my bullet will be close to 240 grns. Not knowing the bullet in question I’d venture to guess 30 grns is about your max charge.

Thanks man that helps alot! These are the bullets i got! Your guess is 30 grains max load for the conical ones? I will do it the way you told me and try out by highering the load with 2,5 grn slowly. How do i know when to stop?

Btw if the chambers are loaded in a while with Pyrodex RS you think that can corode and damage the chambers or it's safe to keep it that way? Not sure if the pyrodex or black powder etc only become coroding after the shot or if it is before it burns as well...or how coroding because i have got different answers from people about cleaning it etc...i never tried pyrodex myself yet. I would today if i wouldn't be living in sweden haha

 

[springfield art]

Thanks man that helps alot! These are the bullets i got! Your guess is 30 grains max load for the conical ones? I will do it the way you told me and try out by highering the load with 2,5 grn slowly. How do i know when to stop?

Btw if the chambers are loaded in a while with Pyrodex RS you think that can corode and damage the chambers or it's safe to keep it that way? Not sure if the pyrodex or black powder etc only become coroding after the shot or if it is before it burns as well...or how coroding because i have got different answers from people about cleaning it etc...i never tried pyrodex myself yet. I would today if i wouldn't be living in sweden haha

Well, apparently, one can just take a plane to somewhere South of the US border, then simply walk across! No screening or passport needed! Hundreds coming every week, then I guess they get transport to City of choice along with all the benefits needed to survive.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Well, apparently, one can just take a plane to somewhere South of the US border, then simply walk across! No screening or passport needed! Hundreds coming every week, then I guess they get transport to City of choice along with all the benefits needed to survive.

**** man! Sounds like sweden! I'm coming right away haha

 

[Crypt0manic]

Corrosive* corrode* is what i mean haha sorry @rodwha

 

[rodwha]

Thanks man that helps alot! These are the bullets i got! Your guess is 30 grains max load for the conical ones? I will do it the way you told me and try out by highering the load with 2,5 grn slowly. How do i know when to stop?

Btw if the chambers are loaded in a while with Pyrodex RS you think that can corode and damage the chambers or it's safe to keep it that way? Not sure if the pyrodex or black powder etc only become coroding after the shot or if it is before it burns as well...or how coroding because i have got different answers from people about cleaning it etc...i never tried pyrodex myself yet. I would today if i wouldn't be living in sweden haha

I’ve never tried to find my max charges for any projectile. Instead I started with what I knew to be lethal, a bullet with about 300 ft/lbs or a warm .44 Spl load. What I noted was a bullet around 200 grns needed an energetic powder and 25 grns of 3F typically gave good numbers (low 300’s) so that’s where I began and tried in 5 grn increments as it’s what that measure did. I have a new measure that will work in 2.5 grn increments so I need to retest, but I found my most accurate charge and am working from there. It happens to be 30 grns that weighs 33 of 3F Olde Eynsford, our version of Swiss. But I’d pay attention to the bullet height at 25 grns and then again at 27.5 and see what you see. If you happen to load 30 and find that it was just a little too much you could place a knife blade along the flat and use a light mallet and gently rap on it to flatten the point, that or try cutting it off.

I must inform you that your pointy traditional conical makes an awful manstopper. They travel much slower than a ball, and because it’s fairly slow the point allows the flesh the time to stretch allowing it to create a much smaller than caliber permanent wound track. It’s why our Civil War soldiers much preferred a ball, that a conical just seemed to zip through them leaving them still on their feet fighting. A ball is much more blunt, but also traveling faster and seems to make a caliber sized hole if it doesn’t expand. If it does it’s quite devastating and no different really than a modern hollow point. In essence the best projectile is a hollow point followed by a wide meplat or ball that expanded, followed by a wide meplat, followed far behind by a non expanded ball or round nose bullet, followed very far behind by a pointy conical. Google black powder ballistics gel, there’s several videos of how projectiles behave but also take note of their powder and charges. Standard Goex is very common here and is not a sporting grade powder. I anticipate Pyrodex RS is a little stronger than 3F Goex. Older data tends to show Pyrodex being similar to Goex, whereas newer data seems to show anywhere from that to sporting grade performance. Might well have something to do with compression, though it’s just an uniformed guess.

If your gun was properly cleaned prior to loading you should be fine. Shoot it one time or miss some fouling and it will make quick work of the metal under it, I know, had it happen over night in my muzzleloader taking someone’s advice that they can go a week before cleaning after a match. The corrosion is far worse than black powder it seems. Others claim they have no problems. I’ve left my NMA loaded with Triple 7 for about 6 years and all went off just fine and with no issues. I’d suggest you use your Pyrodex to practice with and then use another powder. I’m guessing you can get Swiss easily enough. There’s a French powder (KN-something or other) that’s potent, along with a South African one. Can you get Hogdgon’s Triple 7 substitute? It’s the only one I know of other than maybe Pyrodex that could be called a sporting grade synthetic powder.

 

[Crypt0manic]

I’ve never tried to find my max charges for any projectile. Instead I started with what I knew to be lethal, a bullet with about 300 ft/lbs or a warm .44 Spl load. What I noted was a bullet around 200 grns needed an energetic powder and 25 grns of 3F typically gave good numbers (low 300’s) so that’s where I began and tried in 5 grn increments as it’s what that measure did. I have a new measure that will work in 2.5 grn increments so I need to retest, but I found my most accurate charge and am working from there. It happens to be 30 grns that weighs 33 of 3F Olde Eynsford, our version of Swiss. But I’d pay attention to the bullet height at 25 grns and then again at 27.5 and see what you see. If you happen to load 30 and find that it was just a little too much you could place a knife blade along the flat and use a light mallet and gently rap on it to flatten the point, that or try cutting it off.

I must inform you that your pointy traditional conical makes an awful manstopper. They travel much slower than a ball, and because it’s fairly slow the point allows the flesh the time to stretch allowing it to create a much smaller than caliber permanent wound track. It’s why our Civil War soldiers much preferred a ball, that a conical just seemed to zip through them leaving them still on their feet fighting. A ball is much more blunt, but also traveling faster and seems to make a caliber sized hole if it doesn’t expand. If it does it’s quite devastating and no different really than a modern hollow point. In essence the best projectile is a hollow point followed by a wide meplat or ball that expanded, followed by a wide meplat, followed far behind by a non expanded ball or round nose bullet, followed very far behind by a pointy conical. Google black powder ballistics gel, there’s several videos of how projectiles behave but also take note of their powder and charges. Standard Goex is very common here and is not a sporting grade powder. I anticipate Pyrodex RS is a little stronger than 3F Goex. Older data tends to show Pyrodex being similar to Goex, whereas newer data seems to show anywhere from that to sporting grade performance. Might well have something to do with compression, though it’s just an uniformed guess.

If your gun was properly cleaned prior to loading you should be fine. Shoot it one time or miss some fouling and it will make quick work of the metal under it, I know, had it happen over night in my muzzleloader taking someone’s advice that they can go a week before cleaning after a match. The corrosion is far worse than black powder it seems. Others claim they have no problems. I’ve left my NMA loaded with Triple 7 for about 6 years and all went off just fine and with no issues. I’d suggest you use your Pyrodex to practice with and then use another powder. I’m guessing you can get Swiss easily enough. There’s a French powder (KN-something or other) that’s potent, along with a South African one. Can you get Hogdgon’s Triple 7 substitute? It’s the only one I know of other than maybe Pyrodex that could be called a sporting grade synthetic powder.

Hey man! I was outside and tried the bp gun today i will attach a video in here. But i tried 30 grains of black powder with some round bullets i had from earlier of kinda different sizes. Some of these were a bit oversized but anyways i have the right bullets now i guess. I will go and clean the gun soon. And try out later to see if the new RB shaves a ring around as it should. These RB bullets i shot today were a bit oversized but no problem getting them in.

I shot 2 cylinders using the conical bullets i showed you earlier and 1 with some round balls. I loaded it with 25 grains of Pyrodex RS and the conical bullet without anything in between the bullet and pyrodex.

On the penetration test the conical ones with 25 grain got in deeper in the wood. I would say double as deep as 30 grains of bp with these round balls. Maybe i have some ****** black powder i'm not sure! I gotta try out 30 grains of the same Pyrodex with a RB bullet to see if that becomes any better...will do it next time! The one i bought it from got no clue either what he's selling...

That's interesting i didn't know that. I thought that the conical ones might be a better man stopper! That's why i got them.

I'm not sure but i think i can get triple 7 i will have a check to see! Last time i checked i didn't find any. It's kinda hard getting the swiss black powder here since to buy black powder you have to get a box for keeping it in which becomes registered. So i don't want to register any boxes...i just wanna buy and shoot...and the guy i know who sells bp doesn't have a clue which kinds he got. He had 3 different BP's i just told him to send me the most powerful one he got so he might be shipping it soon.

I have been kinda worried to try triple 7 since it's a original percussion revolver but i guess it should be fine as long i don't overload it.


I read somewhere that black horn would be a non corossive alternative but i can't find that in sweden. Maybe i can order from US i'm not sure how the customs do about that substitute.

Is there any way to see how much powder is too much for the gun while shooting it? Since it's a original one i can't really rely on the information of replicas since they got harder steel. I'm curious on why the conical ones penetrate better but as i told you earlier probably because of ****** black powder since i barely know what kind this one might be. But can it really be that bad? I mean it's still 30 grains of black powder but 25 grains of pyrodex RS with conical bullets penetrate double as deep then these round balls with bp.

 

[rodwha]

A conical will penetrate much deeper. That’s why they liked using them on horses. You don’t need that level of penetration, especially since it makes such a small wound. A ball can go clean through you, for certain if it didn’t expand. A ball typically gets over 1/2 a meter of penetration in gel if it doesn’t expand. A ball performs way better than one might believe.

Triple 7 would be fine in your gun assuming it’s in good order. Now if you were trying to cram extra powder in the chambers like with Pyrodex you’re on your own. Use it as an equivalent to black powder and you are fine.

BlackHorn 209 needs a 209 shotgun primer for itnition.

Would you mind taking a pic of your cylinder where you can see how thick or thin the walls are? I’m curious is yours look as thin as mine.

Can you find any bullets that have a wide meplat? Something along the lines of having a wide flat nose like this:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Crypt0manic,

Pyrodex (or black powder or the substitutes) is not corrosive. Once fired, the fouling residue is very corrosive. The corrosive fouling can be cleaned using soap and water. You do need more complete cleaning of all parts touched by Pyrodex fouling than black powder fouling. Rust protection is provided by a good rust preventing oil.

The P+ designation is an American term to define an unmentionable loading practice to load a round to higher than the standard load. If you would be able to load a theoretical 50 grain load in your New Model Army revolver, that would be a P+ load compared to a 35 grain load. I don't think that you need such a stout load in you original revolver.

 

[Crypt0manic]

A conical will penetrate much deeper. That’s why they liked using them on horses. You don’t need that level of penetration, especially since it makes such a small wound. A ball can go clean through you, for certain if it didn’t expand. A ball typically gets over 1/2 a meter of penetration in gel if it doesn’t expand. A ball performs way better than one might believe.

Triple 7 would be fine in your gun assuming it’s in good order. Now if you were trying to cram extra powder in the chambers like with Pyrodex you’re on your own. Use it as an equivalent to black powder and you are fine.

BlackHorn 209 needs a 209 shotgun primer for itnition.

Would you mind taking a pic of your cylinder where you can see how thick or thin the walls are? I’m curious is yours look as thin as mine.

Can you find any bullets that have a wide meplat? Something along the lines of having a wide flat nose like this:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C

Got ya! 25-30 grains pyrodex is relatively fine tho i guess i'm not overdoing it? Don't want the stuff blowing up in my hand haha Made a couple cartridges of rolling paper yesterday with 30 grains pyrodex and a round ball i want to try! I guess triple 7 is more sensitive working with. Lets see if i can try these cartridges today!

Yeah man i think i can get a bullet like that. at least something alike i seen these on the website where i got my bullets. I guess that gives more of a hollow point effect? Since it's soft lead.

Sure i took a picture yesterday while loading. Here you go!

 

[Crypt0manic]

@Crypt0manic,

Pyrodex (or black powder or the substitutes) is not corrosive. Once fired, the fouling residue is very corrosive. The corrosive fouling can be cleaned using soap and water. You do need more complete cleaning of all parts touched by Pyrodex fouling than black powder fouling. Rust protection is provided by a good rust preventing oil.

The P+ designation is an American term to define an unmentionable loading practice to load a round to higher than the standard load. If you would be able to load a theoretical 50 grain load in your New Model Army revolver, that would be a P+ load compared to a 35 grain load. I don't think that you need such a stout load in you original revolver.

Okay got ya man! I didn't use any soap except hot water but i cleaned it probably in a hour or so...all parts i even loosened the nipples while cleaning and later on put them back...which is i guess a overkill. Usually i don't do that. But i was worried since i heard about pyrodex being corrosive. I put on pretty much gun oil usually everywhere so guess i'm good. Probably a bit overkill with oil as well but good to be on safe side! Doing that after every cleaning.

Guess that means even if it's pyrodex in chambers and no fouling residue it would be fine standing like that with loaded chambers the way i do with black powder.


What's your recommended load for a original one with Pyrodex RS and a round ball that should be enough for self defense etc? Doing 25-30 now! I will try some paper cartridges i made yesterday with a RB and 30 grains pyrodex RS.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@Crypt0manic,
Pyrodex and 777 are a little stronger than black powder by about 10% by volume measure. That would be true for both the Pyrodex RS, the Pyrodex P, and the 777. That would be a load of 22 to 28 grains volume. Your load of 30 grains volume of Pyrodex is not too strong and certainly plenty strong for self defense. Based on what you have been saying about the gun laws in Sweden, carrying a loaded revolver for self defense may not be as "comforting" as it would be here in the US.

 

[Crypt0manic]

@Crypt0manic,
Pyrodex and 777 are a little stronger than black powder by about 10% by volume measure. That would be true for both the Pyrodex RS, the Pyrodex P, and the 777. That would be a load of 22 to 28 grains volume. Your load of 30 grains volume of Pyrodex is not too strong and certainly plenty strong for self defense. Based on what you have been saying about the gun laws in Sweden, carrying a loaded revolver for self defense may not be as "comforting" as it would be here in the US.

Thanks! I'm thinking of making some paper cartridges so probably might use 25 grains with the conical ones and 30 with the round balls of pyrodex RS.

Never said i would carry it around loaded man. It's too big otherwise i would buy a smaller one. Too much risks with doing that. You can barely walk around here legally with a pocket knife...they will measure the size and if it's over 2 cm or larger which would be 0.7 inches or simply 20 mm you might get a fine and get into police register for a crime of walking around with a weapon...(imagine a loaded gun for self defense) as long you're not a criminal gang member ofc then you can walk around with a AK47 or a AR15 and they might run away when they see you. Maybe even give you a price or medals if you get catched....

Or like the one recently who kidnapped, ***** abused a small girl and invited friends to do same in 17 hours and got 2 years jail and a compensation for that of 80.000$ when he comes out from jail after 2 years. I don't think people in US really get how sick our laws are.

BUT i want to be able to if needed man. That's why i'm asking you about the different loads and bullets etc since i literally got no one here to ask...literally no one. I can't even mention the word "self defense" while buying it.....and you know criminals walk around with glocks not cap and ball percussion revolvers...so would appriciate if we stay to the subject.

Also i'm curious and want to know more about my revolver. So i will be happy if you wanna help with that.

 

[Crypt0manic]

Btw guys i got a question. I once made a paper cartridge of rolling paper. But after shooting i detected there were paper left in the chamber. Is there a special trick for that or it's normal? How does that part work? Thinking if that could cause the bullet to misfire after a few cartridges?

I will get a cartridge making kit in future right now i just make them with a pen i got. I will see if i can find anything with better shape and size.

This is what it looks like using pyrodex and a 454 ball.

 

[rodwha]

Got ya! 25-30 grains pyrodex is relatively fine tho i guess i'm not overdoing it? Don't want the stuff blowing up in my hand haha Made a couple cartridges of rolling paper yesterday with 30 grains pyrodex and a round ball i want to try! I guess triple 7 is more sensitive working with. Lets see if i can try these cartridges today!

Yeah man i think i can get a bullet like that. at least something alike i seen these on the website where i got my bullets. I guess that gives more of a hollow point effect? Since it's soft lead.

Sure i took a picture yesterday while loading. Here you go!

What it is is that the flat surface (has to be large enough to do it) creates a pocket in front of the bullet that pushes the liquid, which can’t be condensed, out of the way, which is what causes the wound to become larger than the caliber, even at low velocity. The same technology was introduced by the Russians with torpedoes. They found that the pocket or bubble ahead of the torpedo allowed it to sail through the water without as much resistance. I don’t know the specifics but it’s hydraulic. So it does sort of work like a HP but with less devastation but keeping its penetration capabilities.

Hmmm, seems like you have a little more meat between your chambers than I do. Are the chambers chamfered?

I use a slightly undersized dowel rod to form my paper cartridges.

I use rolling papers too, and get the little shards of paper left occasionally in chambers. I was picking them out but then decided to see if they’d cause an issue. I only had enough to run 3 cylinders full, but it didn’t cause any ignition problems.

You can nitrate the paper. I tried it but it was messy so I gave up on it. They work fine and it’s not like I’ll need a dozen reloads going into battle somewhere.