Lock tune up

[brazosland]

I have a Pedersoli Bess Carbine that I bought new 20 years ago.

The lock has always functioned “OK”, but I think it would benefit from new springs and maybe a little tuning.

I am handy at a lot of things, but I do know my limitations. Any recommendations on who works on these locks that I could send it to?

 

[Dave Marsh]

I would get a hold of Brad Emig at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading. I have had him tune several locks including a pedersoli flintlock from a pistol. Fast service and a fair price.

cabincreek.net/gear/

Dave

 

[Don H]

I have a Yorktowne rifle that Brad made for me, it is a piece of art!

 

[Grimord]

Mark Campbell of Copan OK advertises in "Muzzloader" magazine for lock tuning.

 

[rich pierce]

Lock tuning can run from a couple simple tweaks to 10 hours of work.

 

[shane a gress]

There is a seminar on lock tuning at Dixon's, I hope to be in the front row.

 

[PluggedNickel]

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/experiments-with-a-properly-tuned-flintlock.114855/
Dave Person has a great thread on lock tuning. He also does that, and can take a lock that barely sparks, and turn it into a real fire breather!

 

[Artificer]

I have a Pedersoli Bess Carbine that I bought new 20 years ago.

The lock has always functioned “OK”, but I think it would benefit from new springs and maybe a little tuning.

I am handy at a lot of things, but I do know my limitations. Any recommendations on who works on these locks that I could send it to?

Having owned a Brown Bess Carbine in the mid 70's, which came directly from Pedersoli and I had to shoot "as is" from the factory for a number of years, I feel your pain.

I break down flintlock tuning into three categories and the first two can be done by most folks at home if they wish to buy some tools and supplies. Most production locks can benefit from even the first category, so if one has more than one ML gun (including percussion side locks) it can be a good investment.

Category 1: Most people with some slight skill using hand tools can do this category and most production locks will benefit from doing it.

1. Smoothing, clearing and polishing the interior parts so they do not bind and work freely as the parts function.

2. Adjusting the interior lock screws so they can be tightened down snugly, but not interfere with the operation of the inside parts.

3. Fitting the bottom of the Frizzen to the top of the Priming Pan. This both so one doesn't lose priming powder as one raises the gun to fire or moves with priming powder in the pan and as a way to help ensure water/snow doesn't easily get in the pan while hunting.

4. Fitting Replacement Springs and parts.

This category requires some stones, at least one file, an electric hand drill and a black magic marker.

Category 2: This can be done by someone with more hand skill or folks patient enough to learn.

1. Rehardening/Annealing the Frizzen, if the surface hardness has worn through.

2. Reducing the trigger pull and/or making the "break" or the release of the trigger feel better.

This category requires at least a good propane torch, some case hardening compound, some soldering ability (though that can be fairly easily learned), some low temp solder and flux, and some thin brass or steel sheet stock - the thickness depending on the size of the lock. It could also require a drill press.

Category 3: This is the most advanced category that requires the most skill and may be beyond what many folks can or want to learn how to do.

1. Balancing the springs so the Frizzen Spring has enough force to resist the pressure of the flint, but not too much force.

2. Adjusting the "Tip over Point" on the bottom of the Frizzen pad/foot.

3. Adjusting the "Throw" or amount of movement from Half Cock to Full Cock.

4. Actually making replacement springs. (I consider this one of the most difficult things to do.)

5. Hardening/Annealing Lock Parts. (The other difficult thing to do.)

This category requires at least a good propane torch if not a MAPP/Oxygen Torch or an Oxy Acetylene Torch, while a small heat treating oven will REALLY come in handy. It also requires a higher level of being able to file metal flat and of course a better understanding of how to do these things.

I can go into a better explanation of Category 1., if you wish to try it yourself, though perhaps Categories 2. and 3. belong in the Gunsmithing Section.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Sorry I forgot to mention a tool needed for Category 1. under: 2. Adjusting the interior lock screws so they can be tightened down snugly, but not interfere with the operation of the inside parts.

This might possibly also require buying a die and die stock to do this one.

Gus

 

[PluggedNickel]

Sorry I forgot to mention a tool needed for Category 1. under: 2. Adjusting the interior lock screws so they can be tightened down snugly, but not interfere with the operation of the inside parts.

This might possibly also require buying a die and die stock to do this one.
Gus

On my Pedersoli Charleville 1766, I got lucky on the frizzen/pan saddle screw. It would pinch the cam on frizzen if you tightened it. Common problem, as Gus points out.
I ordered a replacement from DIXIE GUN WORKS, it was for a Pedersoli 1777 Charleville. Those have a brass pan that is larger, and easier to remove, same thread on screw, just a bit longer, and more shoulder than thread. Original was more thread than shoulder, not good! All I had to do was cut off about 3/16” that would stick through the lock plate off.
Worked great, can screw it down tight, with perfect fit between frizzen cam, and saddle of pan, and non-threaded shoulder for contact wear surfaces! I wasn’t sure it would work out that way, but it sure did. I figured I’d give it a try, for no more than the screw cost.
Easy fix for anyone with 1766 Charleville, who wants that screw to not vibrate lose, or worse, tighten and cause frizzen to bind.
Truth be, I don’t know why Pedersoli doesn’t do this them selves, short of having a lot of screws they couldn’t use on anything else.

 

[Artificer]

Thank you, PluggedNickel !! That's one I didn't know about and its great for those who have a Charleville 1766 like you have. since there is a LOT of stress on that screw, it is especially important you replaced it with a screw that would tighten without binding or fixed the original screw. I'm adding that info to my files.

Folks, it is a very common thing with production locks that you have to back off the screws that hold the bridle and the sear screw, so as not to bind up the Tumbler and/or the Sear. It would increase the cost significantly, if at the factories, they tried to properly fit these screws. That additional cost would go higher to the Distributor and the cost would rise to the Dealer and then to you when you buy the gun, so it would not be just an increase of the factory cost. This is not something one absolutely "has" to do on most commercial locks, but they do benefit from it.

I worked a large number of large "Military" Percussion Locks over many years at the NSSA and a lesser number of large Military Flintlock Repro guns over the years. I found the less expensive the gun was, the more one had to back out the internal lock screws so they wouldn't bind the parts, because the tolerance slop was higher on those cheaper locks. BTW, it doesn't matter on the internal lock parts fit amoung large Military Locks, whether they be flintlock or percussion, because they still have the same basic internal parts.

The Very WORST large Military Lock I ever worked on happened to be on a EuroArms 3 Band Rifle Musket, even though they were higher quality than most other Italian made UnCivil War guns, except of course for the Highest Grade of the Real Parker Hale guns. We used to stop off and pick up guns we would sell at the NSSA Spring and Fall shoots right at the National Distributors, a day or two before the Shoot began. For this shoot, they only had Two 3 Band Muskets and we normally sold 4 to 5 at each Shoot. While we were unpacking and wiping off the preservative grease, I noticed this one had a horrible Lock, so I grabbed the other one out of the box and wiped it off and put it on the display wall. Originally, I told others we would not sell that gun w/the Horrible Lock and return it to the Distributor. Well, I had come up an extra day early, so I already had my "shop" set up to repair guns. We had plenty of help, so we got the guns on the display wall and put away in better time than normal. There was no gun work waiting, so I decided to look at the Lock more closely and maybe fix it as we didn't have enough of that Model Musket for what we normally sold.

After inspecting the Lock, I got the impression they either assembled it on a Friday afternoon or with all the ill fitting parts they had left over, just to finish the quantity of guns in the order from the factory. The Tumbler ground in the hole in the Lock Plate and Bridle because it was far from smooth, the Bridle was not really in spec so it bound the against the body of the Tumbler as well, the screws actually had the shortest distance between the bottom of the heads to the beginning of the threads and thus had to be backed off WAY too far for the parts to move, though they did not move freely even then. Of course if anyone gets a Lock like this, my normal advice is to send it back to get fixed or replaced.

Well, since we didn't have enough of these Muskets to sell from past knowledge, I decided I would fix it, if I had the time to do so. I wound up stoning the high spots on the Tumbler Arbors and even had to use some extremely fine non embedding compound to smooth out the fit between the Tumbler and the lock plate. Since I had a LOT of experience doing that with NM modern guns, that came Very Nice and inspired me to go further. I normally stocked at least half a dozen to a dozen of each kind of internal lock screw for this Lock, so I chose the ones with the longest distance between the threads and the bottom of the head. That helped a lot, but didn't fix the binding of the bridle. I tried two other Bridles I had, but they didn't work any better in this lock. So I cleared the bridle by judicious filing and stoning on the bottom of the Bridle where it contacted the Tumbler and Sear and stoned the high spots on the body of the Tumbler. I wasn't worried about filing through the surface hardness as these parts were hardened all the way through. Finally, I found the sear was lower on the front and back, than at the bolster. So with more judicious filing, I cleared those spots so the sear bolster would be lower than those two places on the Sear. Even though I had chosen the longest body internal Screws I had, I still had to file the heads of two of the lock screws in my electric drill so they would tighten and not bind up the Tumbler or Sear. Finally I "broke" all the sharp edges with stones, cold blued any bare metal, and lubed the lock correctly. WOW did that make a Huge difference!! It actually turned out to be one of, if not the smoothest of these locks I had ever felt.

When a customer would ask about this Model of Musket, we showed him both the "regular" one on the wall and I showed and explained what I had done on this musket, though we were not going to charge an extra penny for the lock tuning. Even though many folks loved the feel of that lock, it turned out no one wanted to buy that Model at that Shoot, so we returned it to the Distributor after the shoot was over. I did inform them of what I had done, but would not charge them, as I had taken the risk of doing it so we could sell it. As it turned out, they got a better price than normal for that gun after the shoot. I didn't "lose out" though, as that got us in better with the Distributors and in the years to come, they paid me to repair some other guns every now and then.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

1. Smoothing, clearing and polishing the interior parts so they do not bind and work freely as the parts function.

2. Adjusting the interior lock screws so they can be tightened down snugly, but not interfere with the operation of the inside parts.

Yes and many people are "amazed" when I simply do as little as this. One must be careful when stoning a sear and the sear notch (full cock notch) on the bridle to maintain the correct angles. But simply polishing where the metal parts engage each other, and correct screw lengths,tends to give a flintlock musket lock sort of a "leap" forward in performance.

LD

 

[Artificer]

Yes and many people are "amazed" when I simply do as little as this. One must be careful when stoning a sear and the sear notch (full cock notch) on the bridle to maintain the correct angles. But simply polishing where the metal parts engage each other, and correct screw lengths,tends to give a flintlock musket lock sort of a "leap" forward in performance.

LD

Absolutely correct. This is why I recommend the first stone one buy for lock tuning is a 4" long, 1/4" wide, "Three Square" or Triangular, Hard Arkansas Stone. With a liberal coat of oil, one can polish the sear and full cock notch and even most amateurs won't mess up the angles.

Gus

 

[PluggedNickel]

Thank you, PluggedNickel !! That's one I didn't know about and its great for those who have a Charleville 1766 like you have. since there is a LOT of stress on that screw, it is especially important you replaced it with a screw that would tighten without binding or fixed the original screw. I'm adding that info to my files.

Gus

You are welcome Gus, every now and then even a blind hog finds an acorn! Love your detailed posts. You paint such a wonderful picture in my mind following them!
I have found my most important tooL For sear work, sans your hard Arkansas stone, is excellent magnification and lighting! As long as you have a steady hand, and can SEE what you are doing, one need not be afraid to POLISH, a sear, or trigger keeping correct angles. I’m sure you have come across factory sears and triggers with off angle grinds too. Especially on some of the low end smoke poles. Here is a picture of LED magnifier light. These days you can get very nice LED light magnifiers that you wear like glasses as well, at a reasonable price.
A small investment these days, the LEDS make them much cooler to wear, than any old school rig. Oh, I just took myself back to coon hounds and Carbide lights! LOL I must be getting old, but ah, the memories!
Apologies for the verboten cartridge chart in on the wall. George

 

[Artificer]

Hi George,

Thank you for the kind words.

Wow, LOVE your machinist tool chest and I'm envious of how clean you can keep your shop. You made an excellent point about using a magnifier with or even without LED lights on them. For a few years, resisted buying a Brownells Optivisor, but once I actually began using one in my full time job three or so decades ago, I will never do without them again!! I have been using a bendable arm 60 watt desk lamp for many years as well.

Your mention of Coon hunting and Carbide lights brought back found memories as well. Thank you. Though I used one of the first plastic lanterns with the large batteries when I Coon Hunted in the mid to late 1960's, the guy who took us used a carbide lamp and showed me how to work it. That came in VERY handy when I first joined THE Marine Corps Rifle Team as the Junior Armorer in 1975 and wound up teaching new shooters how to use them, so they did not burn up or leak flaming gas. Of course after someone saw me showing a couple of new shooters, that became an extra duty for me.

When I went through the One Year (Plus) Apprenticeship to become a NM Armorer (Military Gunsmith), I had to sweat blood to learn working metal, as I had no experience doing it up to that time, but at least I had the desire and stubbornness of a Missouri Mule to learn to do it. I did a couple of extra projects to learn to file FLAT and accurately, though. Of course when I became the "Instructor of OJT's" (Apprenticeship Instructor) I had to learn/come up with at least three to five ways to do everything, so I could successfully teach all my OJT's/Apprentices. When I post something, I often refer back to those days, because folks may not otherwise be able to follow what we are talking about and I hope to encourage others with more information.

As to using the 1/4 Inch wide Three Square/Triangular Hard White Arkansas Stone: it is very, VERY difficult to mess up the surfaces of the Sear Face or Full Cock Notch with that stone. A very good friend who was actually a real machinist once told me, "You will go blind and/or die of old age before a Hard Arkansas stone could possibly take that much metal away from these edges. Those stones only Polish Metal, they don't actually CUT any significant amount of metal." Of course I came to realize that when we began hand stoning to within One Ten Thousandth of an Inch with Fine India Stones.

On the other hand, I will never forget one of the Instructors at the Smith and Wesson Academy when I went there the second time for the "Automatic" Armorers Course. He firmly stated that for parts to operate smoothly, they only had to be hardened and not stoned! I just shook my head when he said that, but I think he did so because they didn't want their Graduates to stone TOO much off important surfaces and they didn't have the time to teach the difference. However, one incident happened during that course that will be a useful example here.

We had 10 Auto Pistols each to work on and after we installed and checked the parts that were the equal of a Tumbler and Sear, we were told to place the pistols we thought had acceptable trigger pulls pointing in one direction and the ones we thought not acceptable pointing in the other direction. First time around and deliberately not trying to check them like a NM trigger, I only placed four of the ten pistols as acceptable. Then I went back over the six I had rejected and thought, well, they will probably OK two more of them, so I turned them around, but still had four that I would not issue to a Police Officer or Military Member with the trigger pulls in them. As it turned out, the same Instructor checked my pistols and accepted all but only one pistol. He went and got a new and different hammer and sear and told me to install them.

As I was mumbling to myself while disassembling the pistol, the Police Officer next to me was surprised I used the stones they issued to us to dress up the surfaces on the "rejected" parts in my pistol. It only took a few swipes with a Medium India Stone to smoothen some slightly rough machining, followed by five or six with a Fine India Stone to finish smoothing the parts and about a dozen with a Hard White Arkansas Stone to polish them. When I assembled the parts, it wasn't good enough to be a NM trigger, but it was a Huge improvement and far better than the way the trigger normally felt from the factory. At that point I lay the shop rag over the "new" parts he gave me and signaled the Instructor to come over and check my work. He felt it and said, "See? The new parts really did the trick!" I kept a straight face and agreed and waited for other students to finish this task.

After the Instructor walked away, the Police Officer next to me chuckled and asked me how I knew to do the stoning? I informed him we did FAR more work than that on NM Pistols, so that was a breeze to do. At that point, I asked him if his department had any of the pistols we were taught and he said they had about a dozen. So I lifted the shop rag and laid the two "new" parts on his desk after checking them again. I told him they were just going to throw away the parts that would have come out of the pistol had I exchanged them, so someone should get some real use out of the "new" parts. I also told him not to worry as I had been to the Revolver Course and learned they EXPECTED us to take some extra hands and other parts, though they could not come right out and say so. I told him to put them in his pocket and take them home with him to use on his Department Pistols and he did.

The reason I mentioned the above is even Smith and Wesson Handguns were known for some of, if not the smoothest feeling trigger pulls from the factory, but still could use some hand polishing at least. Muzzle loading Gun Parts are often not nearly so well finish machined and that's why most production guns are much improved with a little stoning and polishing.

Gus

 

[PluggedNickel]

Those hard Arkansas stones are gentle on the metal for sure, I learned early on to take care with them. Drop one, and it will break more times than not. The little nubbies do come in handy at times for work in very tight places like inside the frames on revolvers. I always liked those Brownells Optivisors. I never sprang for one, but was always tempted. My bench doesn't always look so tidy, but I like to clean and straighten it up after a project is finished. I've been cleaning and straightening the garage today. It has been hot and humid, and I really had to take in some water to hydrate. The Golden usually hangs with me when I'm working outside, but she didn't take long to want back in with the AC today! I don't have any gun jobs I'm doing at the moment. I'm into replacing the trackbar on the Jeep. I noticed when I replaced the steering stabilizer the trackbar upper bushing was shot. I'm beefing up the steering and suspension with some aftermarket parts and a bit of welding too. Prior project was clean the deck on the Grasshopper mower up and paint it. That was a job I didn't really look forward to, but I took my time. I had done it about 7 years ago. At least that beast of a mower deck is on the front and has a hydraulic lift. It was good to get back in the easy chair on the Grasshopper. We have a John Deere tractor mower as well, but it only has a 48" deck. I swapped out the blades on the zero turn as well. Oh yeah, another job. I've got the ones I took off in the basement, to be wire brushed, sharpened and painted.
Don't you know I came in the house to eat a bite, and when I came back out a darn barn swallow had taken up residence in the garage attic. It was squawking non stop too. After about an hour of that, I had to go up after it with a broom. Came hard at my face too. I wopped it out of the attic and was on my way down the ladder, to close the garage door, when it came back up! Grrrrrr! Those barn swallows are great about eating mosquitoes and flies. But man they are almost as stubborn and my Golden Retriever when they set their mind on something.
Those mim parts on my Charleville were hard, but very rough. I enjoy tinkering with projects like the lock tune. My hands are getting too arthritic to do it on a daily basis though. I've always worked with my hands, some taxidermy back when, some leather work, always wrenching, filing, polishing something, sharpening. I restored a couple of old time split bamboo fly rods once for a friend. I enjoyed that, and he was pleased with the results. I didn't charge him for that, it was a labor of love.
Ha, I just remembered, I've got period correct shoes for the September SAR fair at New Boston, in Springfield, OH. I have to install the brass buckles on them yet, and hopefully get them broke in a bit. Some folks say they get bored in retirement. I haven't had that trouble, in many ways, I'm busier than I was when working. I can always find something needs tending to around here. And when I'm taking a break I can get on here, or elsewhere and learn something new.
George

 

[Artificer]

Those hard Arkansas stones are gentle on the metal for sure, I learned early on to take care with them. Drop one, and it will break more times than not.

Those mim parts on my Charleville were hard, but very rough.
George

George,

One other thing we have not mentioned is that when a lock is smoothed up and not rubbing where it shouldn't, the lock time is going to be faster and especially with a Flintlock. That translates to less time for the sights to move out of alignment with the target and even if that is not noticeable by itself, one will usually notice more accuracy and/or higher scores on targets.

Gus

 

[PluggedNickel]

Very true, and a smooth, fast lock shaves those white hot sparks off cleanly, assuming sharp flint and good geometry! There is also a fine line between a heavy enough main spring to give good lock time and spark, and one that is so heavy, it causes lock jump, severe enough to affect accuracy, and break, chip flints!

 

[Darkhorse]

I still have the 1/4" Arkansas stone I was issued as a Tool & Die maker for the Air Force. It is just the thing to polish those bearing surfaces on the sear and tumbler. But I hesitate to recommend one to someone who wants to tune his lock but has no training or experience. I agree that one could hardly remove much material polishing the flats but it is easy to round off an edge that should be square.
I remember polishing those surfaces on my own rifle, a GPR. My intent was to make the trigger pull better unset. I assumed the trigger components were made of tool steel but in fact mine were case hardened and I polished the case hardening layer off. It worked fine at first but a few days later I climbed into a 16' tree stand, got myself comfortable then primed and cocked the rifle. Boom! It went off immediately. After my heart got back to normal I tried cocking the rifle again, same result. Later under magnification I could see the edge was craterd.
All I shoot now are large Siler locks and all have been tuned. None have reacted like that GPR did. But beware, it can happen.
I prefer to do minimal stoning now and depend on spring work to bring the lock to my specs.
As mentioned earlier Dave Pearson has an excellent post on lock tuning
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/experiments-with-a-properly-tuned-flintlock.114855/
I also balance my locks but a little different than Dave. He is concerned with ratio's, where I am concerned with absolute values. For instance, I use a trigger pull gage to measure how hard it is to open the frizzen but after much experimenting I want my frizzens to open at no more than 3 lbs. This is light enough that my rifles go off smoothly with none of the jar which can cause the sights to move off target.
I consider my lock to be in balance when the mainspring is at or near full power and the rifle does not jar when the flint strikes the frizzen.

 

[Artificer]

I still have the 1/4" Arkansas stone I was issued as a Tool & Die maker for the Air Force. It is just the thing to polish those bearing surfaces on the sear and tumbler. But I hesitate to recommend one to someone who wants to tune his lock but has no training or experience. I agree that one could hardly remove much material polishing the flats but it is easy to round off an edge that should be square.
I remember polishing those surfaces on my own rifle, a GPR. My intent was to make the trigger pull better unset. I assumed the trigger components were made of tool steel but in fact mine were case hardened and I polished the case hardening layer off. It worked fine at first but a few days later I climbed into a 16' tree stand, got myself comfortable then primed and cocked the rifle. Boom! It went off immediately. After my heart got back to normal I tried cocking the rifle again, same result. Later under magnification I could see the edge was craterd.
All I shoot now are large Siler locks and all have been tuned. None have reacted like that GPR did. But beware, it can happen.

Before I begin on my main reply, I assume you are talking about a 3 lb. Frizzen Spring on a "civilian" lock and not a Military lock? I mention this because the thread began about a Military size Brown Bess Lock.

I wanted to ask if in the polishing you mentioned, if you had used fine or medium India stones along with the hard Arkansas stone? It seems to me that you did, as going beyond the depth of case hardening is extremely difficult to do with just a hard Arkansas stone?

Earlier in the thread I mentioned if the OP wanted to try doing the polishing (with the hard Arkansas stone) or smoothing/some metal removal (with India stones) that I would be happy to give some tips. However, the OP has not answered, so I can only imagine he does not want to try going further than sending the lock to someone else.

I fully agree one should not attempt to smooth/remove some metal on the lock parts without some instruction, if they don't have a mentor to show them. Yes, when doing smoothing/metal removal on lock parts, one sometimes to often has to re-harden or re-case harden the parts depending on how much metal was removed. I would add that it is normal for one to ruin a sear or tumbler or both when one first begins to learn to do metal removal on the parts, but that is extremely common and expected, even with a good mentor.

Gus