Lock tuning

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Hi,
Here is a link showing what I did to prepare and tune a lock that needed a lot of work like products from L&R, Davis, M&G, and Pedersoli. It shows a worse case scenario. Really good locks like Chambers, Caywood, Hollenbaugh, Kibler, and Laubach don't require much or any tuning work. Chambers locks usually just benefit from polishing the inside of the plate and any bearing surfaces on the tumbler, sear, bridle, and frizzen. The top of the frizzen spring is always worth polishing highly where the toe of the frizzen rubs against it. I always polish off any grainy texture from the casting process including casting seams inside and out on a lock regardless of maker. Leaving that cast finish is evidence of lazy or rushed work in my opinion. The thread below shows what I did to bring an L&R Queen Anne lock up to an acceptable standard for me. Portions of what I did may be all that is necessary with your lock.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.msg610320#msg610320
Keep in mind, some commercial locks can be really terrible. I just finished fixing two Pedersoli locks, a Lott and a Bess, that were nightmares of shoddy work. On the Bess I had to add a bronze bushing to the tumbler hole and drill it straight to correct a tumbler installed at an angle. They drilled a grossly oversized hole in the bridle so the angled tumbler would still fit in the hole. I had to fill that hole with welded steel and redrill it. On the Lott, the gap between the pan and frizzen was enough to spill out priming, the sear was mangling the lip of the half cock notch with every shot such that the lock no longer held at half cock, and worse, the sear bar dropped below the edge of the lock plate when in half cock and full. You cannot install a lock like that and have it work safely, yet some hack did and sold it. Tuning a lock really depends on the lock because manufacturing quality varies a lot by maker. I rarely work on other peoples lock's anymore except in special cases because that work is often so frustrating and I can never charge what I should to recoup my time. The lock in the thread above cost $170 but add to that at least $150 worth of work to bring it up to a standard just equal to a Chambers lock right out of the box, and then another $150 or so to make it into what I did. The Chambers lock at $200 is the real bargain.

dave
Wow.

Simply Wow.

I had no possible idea it would be that involved. I'm going to contact Chambers on Monday and see what the dimensions are on their round faced English Lock. The stock in my Pedersoli kit is already inlet for their lock. If the plate will fit I'm going that route. This type of smithing is well beyond my skills. Even to only do a fraction of what you did to that lock is well beyond what I'm ready to attempt at this point. This gun is primarily going to be a wall hanger. I'll shoot it to say that I have. But, it's not going to see the amount of use that my other guns do.
 
Wow.

Simply Wow.

I had no possible idea it would be that involved. I'm going to contact Chambers on Monday and see what the dimensions are on their round faced English Lock. The stock in my Pedersoli kit is already inlet for their lock. If the plate will fit I'm going that route. This type of smithing is well beyond my skills. Even to only do a fraction of what you did to that lock is well beyond what I'm ready to attempt at this point. This gun is primarily going to be a wall hanger. I'll shoot it to say that I have. But, it's not going to see the amount of use that my other guns do.

Chris,

Sorry to say the lock plate of the Chambers Round Faced lock is SMALLER than the Pedersoli lock, so it will leave open area around the lock plate AND the side lock bolt holes also won't line up. IOW, it won't work.

Gus
 
Hi Chris,
Just wait and see how your Pedersoli lock is. I have another in my shop right now that is just fine but they clearly have quality control issues meaning you can get a lemon or a good one. I know Gus has worked over scores of Pedersoli locks and I've done maybe a dozen Pedersoli Bess locks. Enough to see how much variation there is in their manufacture and to realize they changed over time. The Pedersoli Bess lock that I own would not fit in the Pedersoli Bess stock from which the other horrible Bess lock came from. They are not interchangeable. Clearly, they are not using any CNC controlled machining. For perspective, of all the Pedersoli Bess locks I've worked over, I recall 4 being terrible and the rest fine. However, that still strikes me as a lot of lemons.

Let me add one more tidbit about Bess locks and those like them. These locks do not have a fly detent in the tumbler. That means it is your finger pressure on the trigger, which pushes the trigger bar up, which in turn pushes the sear up and away from the tumbler when fired. It is that pressure alone that keeps the sear from catching in the half cock notch when fired. There is no rotating fly covering over the half cock notch preventing that from happening, which is why you must have a lock with a fly if using set triggers. What sometimes happens is guys buy their Pedersoli Besses and then try to lighten up the trigger pull a lot. They risk going too far resulting in the sear catching the half cock notch or most commonly, the tip of the sear bashes the lip of the half cock notch, still firing but slowly damaging the tumbler and half cock notch. Brown Bess had heavy trigger pulls and if you try to turn them into light triggered fowling guns, you may run into trouble.

dave
 
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Before going any further, I cannot stress enough that ...

Absolutely -- to everything said in this post. 👍👍👍

Artificer said:
When polishing by hand, you can't go wrong using the sort of dull brick red colored Crocus Cloth, as it would take forever to do too much metal removal that would hurt the parts.

The COARSET things I use to polish lock parts are Hard White Arkansas Stones.

Yes. Anything else is "grinding" or "sanding" or "filing", but is definitely ...

metal removal.

Artificer said:
I don't want to sound too much like a grumpy old curmudgeon,

There is a role for curmudgeons in our society, and this is it. 😂 I do a lot of my own brass instrument repair (tubas, euphoniums, and trombones), and one thing that working with brass teaches you very quickly is to use a light touch and TAKE TIME doing it, or else you'll be REPLACING it instead of "tuning", "modifying", or "repairing" it. Alas, it's taken me decades to learn this, and at times an embarrassing amount of money.
 
GREAT advice, Dave!

When someone hands me a Bess or other large Military Percussion or Flintlock gun to work on and they want a super light trigger pull, I've found the best thing to do is hand them the gun back and tell them it isn't possible. While they are still in a state of shock, I tell them I can put a good feeling trigger on it that will feel hugely better, but it won't be as light as a civilian lock with a fly in the tumbler and set triggers.

A Bess with a 3 3/4 to 4 1/4 pound trigger pull and breaks well, feels GREAT after one is used to the normal 9 to 12 pound trigger pulls of the usual Bess. Going less than that and it won't last long, because of what Dave described.

Gus
 
I tried to do a search on here to gain some knowledge on lock tuning. I see a million posts saying that it s/b done. But, I didn't see a good one w/examples and pictures. Is there an easy way to search that my technologically challenged self doesn't understand? Or better yet, can someone pont me at a specific video or thread that shows what s/b done to make them work better?
Lots of good information replied already. One item that helps me: Study your lock at every pivot, and touch point. Examine the geometry and understand what each part does. Knowing how each part interacts with the other parts is a huge help.
Larry
 
search: lock tuning articles
by: paulvallandigham

I've redone it 3 times this morning.. it seems to work for me maybe someone else has a suggestion on getting searches to work

Searches work, but I don't think we've given Chris the detail of directions needed. Let's try this:

1. Near of the top of your The Muzzleloading Forum Page, find the "Search" button (with the magnifying glass on it) at the right end of the menu bar.
2. Click it (left click, if you're using a standard right-handed mouse).
3. The Search dialog box should pop up. At the bottom right, click the "Advanced search ..." button. That will bring up the Advanced Search window.
4. In the "Keywords" box , type "lock tuning" (without the quotes).
5. In the "Posted by" box, type "paulvallandigham" (without the quotes).
6. Click the "Search" button at the bottom.

That should do it.
 
Is there an easy way to search that my technologically challenged self doesn't understand?

Given the specificity of the results you're looking for, basically the answer to this is "No." There are ways to get that narrow specificity, but they're quite involved and require learning how to use multiple search interfaces and parameters -- so not compatible with the "technologically challenged" constraint. Not that you couldn't learn how to do it. But that would take more time than just manually looking through the results you're already getting. Sorry.

Chris said:
Or better yet, can someone pont me at a specific video or thread that shows what s/b done to make them work better?

The problem with this is, again, the issue of specificity. There is a lot of variation in the locks and what people may need or want to do to them. And part of the problem is that you don't yet know what you need to do with yours. So the likelihood that anyone could point you to one (or two, or three) videos/threads that would specifically address your particular situation is pretty (vanishingly?) small. You will probably have to look at a number of these (which definitely should show up in the searches you're doing) in order to get the scope of understanding you'll need. At least that's my own experience.
 
Absolutely -- to everything said in this post. 👍👍👍



Yes. Anything else is "grinding" or "sanding" or "filing", but is definitely ...





There is a role for curmudgeons in our society, and this is it. 😂 I do a lot of my own brass instrument repair (tubas, euphoniums, and trombones), and one thing that working with brass teaches you very quickly is to use a light touch and TAKE TIME doing it, or else you'll be REPLACING it instead of "tuning", "modifying", or "repairing" it. Alas, it's taken me decades to learn this, and at times an embarrassing amount of money.
That is a good reminfder of why Hard White Arkansas Stones are listed as polishing stones. I've messed things up with Fine India stones and they do not seem that abrasive at first glance. Heaven help you if you find yourself plugging a Dremel in. I was hoping I would be lots smarter than I am when I got to my age.
 
I was hoping I would be lots smarter than I am when I got to my age.
On the other hand, at a certain age you tend to figure that you only have a limited amount of time left, and so reaching for Dremel seems like a reasonable risk. And you say to yourself "I'll be real careful, and just use low speed." 😂 😂 😂

I do love the little Dremel sanding drums. Boy, do THOSE things take a lot (of anything) off! 👍
 
On the other hand, at a certain age you tend to figure that you only have a limited amount of time left, and so reaching for Dremel seems like a reasonable risk. And you say to yourself "I'll be real careful, and just use low speed." 😂 😂 😂

I do love the little Dremel sanding drums. Boy, do THOSE things take a lot (of anything) off! 👍
I subscribe to a system of risk management that says, and I quote (me)..
"EITHER, Don't put all your eggs in one basket.. OR put all your eggs in one basket and.. WATCH THAT BASKET!!
 
search: lock tuning articles
by: paulvallandigham

I've redone it 3 times this morning.. it seems to work for me maybe someone else has a suggestion on getting searches to work
It worked fine from the PC. I was trying last night w/the cell phone.
 
It worked fine from the PC. I was trying last night w/the cell phone.
Ouch. Browser dependency in the forum software, most likely. Nobody tests the way they should. I just had something similar yesterday trying to get my tax forms off the Fidelity site: Wouldn't work with Firefox, but worked with Chrome -- and they focus development on Chrome and the horrid MS browsers.

Anyhow, I'm glad you're making progress on getting what you need.
 
Sometimes it seems like everyone wants a free YouTube video for everything. But only experience enables someone to really diagnose what’s going on and fix a lock that functions poorly. Polishing a lock to make it smoother and faster is straightforward but it’s not going to fix bad assembly, design, or heat treatment. Dave’s several examples cover a lot of ground but note he always diagnoses what’s wrong first.
 
I don't know if anything actually "wrong" with my Bess Lock. It's still in the sealed bag from the factory.
 
Sometimes it seems like everyone wants a free YouTube video for everything. But only experience enables someone to really diagnose what’s going on and fix a lock that functions poorly. Polishing a lock to make it smoother and faster is straightforward but it’s not going to fix bad assembly, design, or heat treatment. Dave’s several examples cover a lot of ground but note he always diagnoses what’s wrong first.
Hi Rich,
That is true but it is mainly because I get locks that are a mess and for which others have failed. It is because I can rarely turn away from someone who has a real problem and is in real need. Even though I really want to work on my own stuff, I have a very hard time not jumping in and helping others. It is a dilemma for me given I have so many projects that I would like to do for myself and family.

dave
 
Dave Crisalli showed me these. Rio Grande polishing sticks and oil. They work well. The abrasive coated plastic belts are replaceable. They will put a mirror finish on about anything without being aggressive. Each color is a finer grit. The angled section is the working surface. When the belt wears out just move the belt forward a little.
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