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George

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i've been puzzled for a long time about references in the 18th-century literature to shooting at what seem unrealistic distances, forty yards, fifty or even longer. That makes me suspicious we have yet to figure out how the old boys loaded their smoothbores. Here's a good example, testing a cylinder bore gun in a way I would never think reasonable.

A Treatise on English Shooting; with Necessary Observations for the young Sportsman when out and returning home, by George Edie, Gent., London, 1773

The internal goodness of a Piece can only be known by trial, without which no new one should be purchased. For the purpose of trying a gun, the following hints may suffice; tack up a large sheet of brown paper, with a card in the middle, on a clear barn-door or some such place, that the degree of scattering may be the better observed; stand at about the distance of seventy yards, and try at first the common charge of a pipe of powder, and a pipe and half of shot ; and to do the gun justice, be as steady as possible in your aim: if you find you have thrown any at this distance into the card, you may safely conclude the Piece is a good one; or if you have missed the card, perhaps through unsteadiness, and thrown a tolerable sprinkling into the sheet, you may have the same good opinion of the gun ; but if you find none in the sheet, and are sensible of having shot steady, try then an equal quantity of powder and shot (which some barrels are found to carry best) at the fame distance; and if you then miss giving the sheet a tolerable sprinkling, refuse the Piece, as being but an indifferent one, if you are determined to have one of the best sort, which certainly is most advisable : and this trial may be reckoned altogether sufficient for a gun that is recommended by any gunsmith as a first-rate one. But for the second, or more indifferent sort, let fifty-five or sixty yards be the distance of trial, and a judgment formed according to the above rule: but it must be observed, that as some Pieces carry a larger quantity of powder and shot than others, so it will be advisable to try three or four different quantities; but never to exceed a pipe and a half of powder and the proportionable quantity of shot as abovementioned.

Spence
 
Any idea of the amount of powder in a pipe? I have seen a large variation in the dive of pipes for smoking tobacco. I might be a bit leery of smoking a pipe of tobacco after measuring powder.
 
Grenadier1758 said:
Any idea of the amount of powder in a pipe?
in another thread i just reported tests i did using 4 replica pipes, amounts ranged 90-108 grains 2F.

Spence
 
WOW, what a great piece of documentation. Thank you.

I wonder what size shot they used? At that range, it must not have been the smaller/smallest size shot of the period.

Gus
 
Well, at least Mr. Edie wasn't suggesting that someone should actually use the gun for hunting at those long ranges.

He merely thought it should throw a pattern that could hit a large piece of paper at 70 yards and if a random piece or two of shot actually hit the playing card in the middle of the paper, that was supposed to be good.

Sounds like a fair test to me.

There were, and still are, shotguns that can't hit a large piece of paper at 70 yards.
That's why we see stories about "bending the barrel".
 
Britsmoothy said:
Are truly certain a pipe here is a smoking pipe?
Yes, we can be. Writing in 1801, Sir Thomas Frankland, Bart. was discussing the dangers of loading directly from the flask, and he said:

"This hazard is easily obviated by any method of detaching the measured charge of powder from the flask, before it is poured into the barrel.#

"#That vulgar implement, a tobacco pipe bowl, has perhaps more merit than Sportsmen of a higher class allow to it."

Spence
 
George said:
Britsmoothy said:
Are truly certain a pipe here is a smoking pipe?
Yes, we can be. Writing in 1801, Sir Thomas Frankland, Bart. was discussing the dangers of loading directly from the flask, and he said:

"This hazard is easily obviated by any method of detaching the measured charge of powder from the flask, before it is poured into the barrel.#

"#That vulgar implement, a tobacco pipe bowl, has perhaps more merit than Sportsmen of a higher class allow to it."

Spence

Interesting .
I wondered if those adjustable shot measures that look like a vulgar smoking pipe were being referred to as a 'pipe'

B. :hatsoff:
 
This is interesting. Especially (to me), testing loads beyond the range of their intended maximum for field use.

It begs the question (again, to me), why the old boys would tackle the question of patterns in this way, versus, patterning at usable ranges as we do today :hmm: .

Any opinions?

Perhaps we are missing sumptin.

Best regards and good post Spence, Skychief
 
Skychief said:
It begs the question (again, to me), why the old boys would tackle the question of patterns in this way, versus, patterning at usable ranges as we do today :hmm: .

Any opinions?

Reading journals over the years I notice one big difference between then and now. How we define "usable" range. We concentrate on lethality with a single hit, preferably in "the boiler room," while it comes through that many back in the day felt ANY hit counted. Kind of like the military outlook on wounding being okay, too. Lotta lotta accounts of game wounded and running off with more or less successful chases. Guys come through in the journals feeling like wounding and even loss were lots more acceptable than today.
 
Skychief said:
It begs the question (again, to me), why the old boys would tackle the question of patterns in this way, versus, patterning at usable ranges as we do today :hmm:
i see references which would seem to indicate that what they considered useable ranges are quite a bit further than we do.

From Markland, 1727:

"THERE SPRUNG a single Partridge_ha! she's gone!
Oh! Sir, you'd Time enough, you shot too soon;
Scarce twenty Yards in open Sight!_for Shame!
Y'had shatter'd her to Pieces with right Aim!
Full forty Yards permit the Bird to go,
The spreading Gun will surer Mischief sow;
But when too near the flying Object is,
You certainly will mangle it, or miss;"

From The Perfect Gun, Portugal, 1718:

“Good adjustment of the barrel consists of firing far with the hail-shot close together and this length that gives it esteem, until now the ultimate point to which art can cause a shot to go with undispersed ammunition, is fifty paces, a well considered barrel being one which can fire the lead to this distance, for only to that point can the charge impel it with legitimate exactness,”

Why this might be so is puzzle I can't answer, but might be related to a couple of things. First, they were better shots, because they shot so much, and were trained to it all their lives. Second, they loaded much heavier than we do. Thomas Page in 1767:

"To a barrel of a middle-sized bore, whose diameter is about five-eighths of an inch (which I look upon to be the best size for shooting flying) [.625", a modern 20 ga.] I put in two ounces of shot, No. 4, [equivalent to #5 1/2 modern American shot] which are about 200 in an ounce, and an equal measure of powder. [4 1/2 dram/123 gr.] This is the charge I use in the field."

Sir Thomas Frankland, 1801:

"That you may not suppose I recommend high loading, I must explain myself more fully, by observing that if a man expects to get fifteen or twenty shots in a day, it will be of no advantage to him to use such a charge as would be more agreeable to his shoulder in case he should get two hundred ; and that an ounce and three quarters, or seven eights, of shot will tell better in the field than the Frenchman's charge-meagre of one ounce. Two ounces of shot is the charge proposed in Page's ingenious treatise on “Shooting Flying;” you will therefore hardly think that my using one ounce and three quarters can class me with those shooters against whom the following severe restriction was levelled, at the foot of an advertisement for pigeon shooting, at Billingbear Warren-house,--- N. B. No person to be allowed to load with more than four ounces of shot!--- A gamekeeper, to whom I mentioned this, laughed, and said he thought it a pretty fair allowance. On my asking him what weight of shot he himself used he answered that he divided one pound into five charges.

"A friend of mine seeing his keeper equipping himself for a pigeon match, was curious to examine the terrors of the prepared charge, and trying it with the rammer, expressed his surprize at finding it rather less than usual, Oh! Sir, replied the keeper, I have only put in the powder yet.

"Of this school are the wild fowl shooters ; in one of whose guns of six feet barrel, I lately measured a charge to the height of eleven fingers,--- Sir, I likes to give my Gun a belly-ful".

You may have seen Mike Beliveau's demonstration of shooting 100 grains of 2F and 2 ounces of shot with good success at 35 yards. I've had results similar to his in my testing. Maybe that's what they were up to.

Spence
 
BrownBear said:
Skychief said:
It begs the question (again, to me), why the old boys would tackle the question of patterns in this way, versus, patterning at usable ranges as we do today :hmm: .

Any opinions?

Reading journals over the years I notice one big difference between then and now. How we define "usable" range. We concentrate on lethality with a single hit, preferably in "the boiler room," while it comes through that many back in the day felt ANY hit counted. Kind of like the military outlook on wounding being okay, too. Lotta lotta accounts of game wounded and running off with more or less successful chases. Guys come through in the journals feeling like wounding and even loss were lots more acceptable than today.

I wonder with much more plentiful game, if they indeed didn't worry about wounding one. Another would soon present itself.

Doc
 
DocGP said:
BrownBear said:
Skychief said:
It begs the question (again, to me), why the old boys would tackle the question of patterns in this way, versus, patterning at usable ranges as we do today :hmm: .

Any opinions?

Reading journals over the years I notice one big difference between then and now. How we define "usable" range. We concentrate on lethality with a single hit, preferably in "the boiler room," while it comes through that many back in the day felt ANY hit counted. Kind of like the military outlook on wounding being okay, too. Lotta lotta accounts of game wounded and running off with more or less successful chases. Guys come through in the journals feeling like wounding and even loss were lots more acceptable than today.

I wonder with much more plentiful game, if they indeed didn't worry about wounding one. Another would soon present itself.

Doc
Bingo!!! Or the dogs would find the wounded. No care of animal ethics back then that is part of our problem understanding the old ways. IMHO
 
nhmoose said:
DocGP said:
BrownBear said:
]
Guys come through in the journals feeling like wounding and even loss were lots more acceptable than today.

I wonder with much more plentiful game, if they indeed didn't worry about wounding one. Another would soon present itself.

Doc
Bingo!!! Or the dogs would find the wounded. No care of animal ethics back then that is part of our problem understanding the old ways. IMHO
I'm sure that was more of a factor then than now, but they were not all alike in their hunting ethics any more than we are.

Thomas page, 1767:

"Upon the whole, therefore, I think, that if you use the best double-strong powder, two-thirds of the quantity will have as much force as the full charges of common powder; and be sufficient to kill at fifty yards, which is as great a distance as a sportsman will in general attempt to shoot at, and indeed greater than he ought to shoot at: for if we will make the lives of the poor birds our diversion, we ought to put them to as little misery as we can and therefore should not shoot without being certain they are within our reach, so that the shot will fly thick enough to kill them outright.

Spence
 
Were there to remain some powder fragments in the pipe bowl, a smoker might be in for quite a surprise when he went to light up his smoke!
 
Not birds but s way of looking at game, I think it was Russell that said he and a friend approached a buffalo heard. Writting that it was a shame to kill such a large animal for just two men's dinner,and they chose 'the poorest one of the herd.'
 
nhmoose said:
One out of how many. He was a good start however.
Well, we certainly aren't 100% ethical today. One out of how many is still an appropriate question.

Page's statement carries a lot of weight with me because he was speaking in a time when there were essentially no game laws. Ethics only under the force if law doesn't deserve a lot of credit.

Spence
 

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