Looking at flintlocks, 36 or 45 caliber? -more

[JJB22]

Howdee

I am an experienced muzzleloader but with a CVA 58 mountain rifle (cap) the 58 Remington revolver, and my old Remington 700ML. But as I get older I am feeling tired of the technology filled world where people can't funtion without their electronic gadgets and shooting 500 rounds of ammo out of a semi-auto-- just seems a waste of shooting pleasure. I have to admit that I have turning into a revolver man over the last year or two and I am getting flak over that turn of events. Anyway, I am thinking hard abount canning some of my modern noise makers for an long rifle in the flintlock variety. I need a little advice from you fine folks. I think I want a small caliber rifle 36 or 45 caliber. I will be shooting targets 99.9 percent of the time and will use good ol fashion blackpowder for the boom along with round balls. What caliber would be better for my enjoyment? advantages/disadvantages to these different calibers. I like the idea of the long barrel rifles. I am 6' 8" and I can make a gun look like a toy so the longer the better. I was looking at the Pedersoli frontier model and like the simple look but I would love to get a U.S.A. made rifle if I can. I am looking at the 700-1000 dollar range. What do you all think.

Thanks in advance-- Big Jim

 

[Gemoke]

I have the Pedersoli blue ridge (frontier) in a 36 and love it. I like the fact that I can buy 000 buck shot by the 5 lbs box It`s a great shooter out to 100 yds as long as it`s not windy. mine is alittle long in the trigger pull 14 1/4 but you say your a big guy so that shouldn`t matter.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Welcome to the forum, Jim. At 6'8" tall, you are going to require a longer Length of Pull and probably a much larger Drop at both Comb and Heel of your stock to fit you properly.

You ask about .36 or .45? Have you considered a .40 caliber rifle?? All three calibers are used by paper punchers. The .40 has an edge over the .36 for shooting out to 100 yds. The .45 holds the edge for getting another 25-35 yards on the .40 caliber, before trajectory becomes rather large, using a Round ball.

Do you expect to use the gun to do any kind of hunting? If so, you need to check the hunting regulations for the state where you hunt to determine what, if any caliber, restrictions are placed on hunters.

The .36 is a lovely caliber, because it uses rather small amounts of powder, not much lead in those 60-65 grains RBs, and there is virtually NO recoil, even using 3Fg powder. The .40 has a reputation for both accuracy, and flat shooting out to 100 yds. The .45 is a terrific caliber to use for hunting up to deer sized game, out to .75 yards or so. Its running out of gas at 100 yds, but it still brings down deer at that range every year.

All Round Ball have terrible Ballistics Coefficients. That means that they lose velocity very fast- much faster than any bullet. Its this factor, and the open sights on the rifles that limit the distance you want to shoot these guns. I don't believe this is much concern for you, from what you have already written here. But, its something you should know in understanding any recommendation we make here.

For the money you want to spend, I would recommend you contact TVM about building the gun for you. Or contact Tip Curtiss and see what he has that is 90% complete, and just leaves the finishing to you. Most of the stock makers leave enough wood on the back end of their stocks to accomodate long Lengths of Pull on the stocks. I think you can use something like a 14 1/2" LOP, provided the drop at heel is near 3 inches. It depends on your body build, really, and if you have any modern rifles that fit you well, you should take the dimensions of that stock and use it when building a custom MLer.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I would recomend a 45 caliber, Good for paper and trail targets . And large enough for deer and other game as well. The 36 calibers are nice for short range paper and squirel sized game. I have two older Pedrosele s and like them but as I get older I value American made guns( and all other items as well ) more and more. I suggest you try the used gun market for a good gun in your price range.

 

[JJB22]

You guys are quick, 40 cal does fit right in the middle of the two that I mentioned, I saw a few on someones website but cant remember where. I don't think I will hunt with it but I can see 100 yard shots (attempted anyhow) in my future with the Flintlock.

Is there some contact info on those recomendations above?

By the way thaks for the welcome. Big Jim

 

[Golfswithwolves]

For target work any of these calibers should make you quite happy. The smaller the caliber generally the less expensive it is to shoot, but use on game becomes more limited. I concur with the idea of getting a rifle from somebody like TVM; you will get a better rifle for your money.

 

[cowpoke1955]

Hey neighbor,
I'm in NE Alabama. Welcome to the forum. If you are in to building, check out these sites: http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/ and http://tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/ . TVM has a Tennessee rifle in calibers from .32 to .54. They'll even do some of the hard work for a charge. If you want a completed rifle or in the white (where you just do the final finishing) check out these sites: http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/ and http://www.avsia.com/tvm/ . They'll all have some nice pieces within your price range. .40 caliber is another nice choice. Pedersolis are nice, but too pricey. I have a .45 Pedersoli Blue Ridge flinter that I love. But when you can get a semi-custom for about the same price, nothing else needs to be said. Good luck and let us know how it turns out :thumbsup:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I think Paul's idea about looking at a semi custom is sound. Most any mass produced gun is made to fit the masses; at your size you really are not in that group. I'll not guess at the correct pull length for instance, But TVM or someone like then could fit you better than a factory product IMHO. The choice of style could also help the fit too. I favor Lancaster Co. style. Perhaps their wide butt plate and straight comb might lend itself to a good custom fit. It would be handy if you could shoulder a sample before buying.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Zonie]

In your price range I would recommend the Tennessee Valley Manufacturing Poor Boy in .45 caliber in a 42 inch long barrel (Either Green Mountain or Longhammock are very good barrels but Green Mountain is behind in their production so asking for one of their barrels could delay your gun).
Check out this link: http://tennesseevalleymanufacturing.com/catalog.php?category=tpbriflekit

The .45 caliber is a little less sensitive to crosswinds than the smaller calibers and finding swagged .440 or .445 diameter roundballs for it is relatively easy.

The advantages of ordering one of these "Poor Boys" from TVM is it is a custom made gun.
This allows you to add things like a butt plate and perhaps a ramrod entry pipe and a nosecap for the front of the stock. (original poor boys often don't have one or any other fancy thing like patchboxes or ramrod entry pipes or nosecaps).
At the prices they have listed I would opt for the double set trigger because you said you are going to do a lot of target practice.
Also notice that these guns are available in either Flintlock or Percussion styles.

All of the parts are American made and replacement parts are radially available if you ever need one.

More importantly, being custom made you can ask for a length of pull that is a bit longer.
If modern factory made guns are OK, their length of pull is around 14 inches.
For a man of your size perhaps asking for a 15 inch length of pull may fit you better.
(I don't think I would recommend a LOP of over 16 inches as that moves the center of gravity way out there making the gun feel very muzzle heavy.

If your not familiar with a Poor Boy, it is a Southern style gun commonly using iron (steel) furniture.
They are very plain slender guns often using Walnut, Maple or fruit wood stocks.

At their finished gun base price of $850 these are practically a steal and if you want to do the finish sanding, staining and barrel browning you can save an extra $100!

The only fly in the ointment is because this is a custom made gun you may have to wait several months before your new gun is ready for you.

IMO, these guns at these prices puts all of the foreign guns to shame.

PS, I don't work for them and I don't even own one of the guns they have made.
I do know a good deal when I see one though.

 

[Le Grand]

Big Jim, You asked what we think and I think you need to go to Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading and look at their Southern Rifle in .40 caliber with a 42" long barrel. Others have recommended kits but it seems like you're after an already built rifle; lock, stock & barrel. Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading makes 'em either way. Look at their other guns to and if you've got questions, just ask 'em. Fine folks, for sure. Look 'em up at www.avsia.com/tvm/

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hey Big Jim,

There are a couple of suggestions I would make as your looking for a new flintlock, especially since your are looking for one to be made for you or perhaps to finish yourself.

One suggestion is, if you are a right hand shooter, get 1/4" cast-off built into the stock. What that means is the centerline of the stock at the butt plate is 1/4" out of plane from the centerline of the barrel. If you look from the barrel end down to the butt of the gun, the stock on virtually all off-the-shelf-guns is a straight extension of the barrel. A gun that has cast-off built into it is bent slightly off center. What this cast off does is put your eye right in line with the sights on the barrel so you don't need to lean your head over to sight down the barrel. When you mount the gun your eye is in line with the sights. Some people need only 1/8" cast-off and a few wide-faced people with large cheekbones may need as much as 1/2". But from the shotgun fittings I did for years using a try-gun to perfectly fit a stock to a shooter, 1/4" does it for most people.

An even more important suggestion is get a SWAMPED barrel. This is a barrel that tapers down and then swells back out a bit as it reaches the muzzle. Sort of like a hourglass laid on its side but not as radical. This type of barrel makes the longrifle night and day easier to bring up and hold on target. it makes for a really nicely balanced rifle. It's also historically correct through the early 1820's or so when the first barrel-making machines became available. The straight octagon barrels are always nose heavy and out of balance by comparison. You'll pay an extra $100 or so for the swamped barrel and it will be the best $100 you've ever spent.

I have a production rifle with a 40¾" straight barrel and a custom rifle with a 44" swamped barrel and the custom rifle is so nicely balanced, you wouldn't believe the difference.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[jbwilliams3]

I would also agree about buying a semi-custom gun. Your price range fits the bill for some makers (TVM, ERA) and you’ll be able to customize your length of pull, etc. Plus, it will be American made.

I still have a Pedersoli Frontier as you mentioned. It’s a good gun, but not for today’s prices.

 

[wbyram]

I want to add amen to Zonie's remarks.I own two rifles from the builder;one is a .40 Tenn.rifle in
left hand with 36"bbl and 15"pull.This was a complete bespoken build.The other is a left hand,flint with a 3/4"by 30" bbl.(short long rifle).Matt Avance did a lot of the work and and left alot for me.You can get a rifle to your specs and to any stage of completion.I think if you call these folks up and discuss your needs ,they will do everything possible to make
you happy.
Wayne

 

[JJB22]

I guess I have some homework do this weekend. I am leaning toward U.S.A made new or maybe used. I sure do appreciate all the help on this issue. I will look over my options and “choose wisely”. I am not in a hurry; I like to weigh all my options before I buy. Thanks again. Big Jim

 

[FPDoc]

I recently got to shoulder a Matt Avance weapon and it was wonderful. It shouldered like some originals I have played with. The semi-custom (a rifle made by an actual gun builder) is worth every penny and you will never regret the extra cost.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Hi Jim. I'd like to put in a word for the .45 caliber. It is as accurate as any other bore diameter once you've worked up a load for it and it carries better at the longer ranges. Bucks the wind better too. And if you decide to hunt with your rifle, the .45 is more versatile. You use head shots on small game and take deer sized game as you always have.

I have muzzleloaders with pulls from 13 1/4" up to 15" and you are way taller than I am. Just taking the 15" pull as an example, it fits me quite well because the stock has a lot of drop--about 4 and 3/4" at the heel. So it might be a good idea to try a few different custom or semi-custom rifles on for size before buying. I really doubt that a production gun will fit you well because few if any are made with cast-off or pulls of the length you need. TVM seems a good bet or ERA. A gun-in-the-white is a great money saver.

 

[rabjr]

I have to agree with Russ on the .45 here. This being your first flintlock and once you come over to the dark side, your going to want to use it for everything and the .45 is so versatile, it allows you to. :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Another thing to consider is that you are also purchasing a family heirloom and an American made longrifle makes a fine one. Some pretty wood and quality parts make for a treasured possession for generations to come.

It is true that the lead ball has a low ballistic coefficient. This is especially true when compared to modern projectiles. The patched ball is what it is and performs all out of proportion to what "science" says it should and it has for centuries! The answer has always been that as the game gets bigger the ball gets bigger--and using more powder helps too. Over the centuries it is most doubtful that any game animal or enemy soldier ever complained that the ball that killed him lacked the proper ballistic coefficient. Ballistics in the world of the patched ball is best expressed as bigger is always better when hunting big game--a ten bore rifle ball will close the deal on any animal in the Americas and most of the animals everywhere else too. :v

 

[texcl]

I built a TVM tennessee rifle from one of their kits, I chose a .36 with a long hammock barrel, with an english lock (you can have them install what ever lock will fit since Matt inlets them by hand)and it is fast and very accurate, I shoot to 100 yards and it is fantastic. Of course I built this rifle as a turkey rifle with back up duties as a coyote and small game rifle. If you will be hunting big game or plan on this being your only muzzle loader I'd go with .45.

 

[Dphar]

Shooting to 100 yards the 45 is best.
Smaller calibers are OK for shorter ranges 50 or so.
32-36 are about the same for most purposes. So the right rifle at the right price consider the 2 calibers as equal.

Dan