Looking for some advice on purchasing a Brown Bess

[magnusmd]

I'm just getting into Rev War reenacting/living history with a local American militia unit. I want to get myself a Brown Bess to use for this and a bit of live firing at the range.

My unit's history guru has recommended that I get a bess from Veteran Arms. This particular company says they import Indian gun kits, then do a fair amount of assembly, finishing, frizzen hardening and testing.

A number of people at the range I go to tell me that the Indian guns suffer from poor workmanship and are prone to problems, regardless of any 'finishing' done, and that I'd be much better off spending the extra money for a Pedersoli.

Aside from the lower price, Veteran also offers a much wider range of model years, some of which are more appropriate to the persona I wish to portray, while Pedersoli only appears to make the 1762 version, regardless of who I get it from. Has anyone here ever bought a gun from Veteran Arms or heard anything about them? Any other suggestions that I haven't thought of?

 

[nwtradegun]

forget india made guns. look at dixie gun works 75 cal trade musket. it is a converted brown bess I had one until health stopped me from reenacting. however do not get a mold ot balls until you mic the bore. mine was 729 12 ga.

 

[BrownBear]

Any other suggestions that I haven't thought of?

I can't contribute a thing about models for re-enacting, and I certainly have no experience with versions from India.

But here's a thought for you:

I'm more than a little surprised by the "quality" differences between early and recent Pedersolis. Mine is at least 30 years old, and it's night and day from the new ones in fit and finish. Can't compare them on function, but mine is flawless.

If you could "make do" with the details on a Pedersoli, I'd go hunting for one of the early ones and save some bucks off new price.

 

[Artificer]

Magnus,

Welcome to the Forum!

When you join a reenactment group, each one seems to have its own standards of what they want their members to carry, wear, etc. So the first thing I suggest you do is find out if the India Made Gun is the only gun your group wants you to buy or if they will allow Pedersoli or other Muskets.

The next thing to consider is if you buy an India made gun, is there someone in the group or close by who can work on them for you, if/when you have problems?

I bought a Navy Arms (Pedersoli Made) Brown Bess Carbine in 1974 and finally traded it for a full length Pedersoli Bess around 2000 to use when reenacting the 42nd Royal Highlanders. Both guns worked well and I got a lot of use out of both.

IF you are doing either an American Patriot or American Loyalist impression, there are some things you can change on the Pedersoli without a lot of difficulty and then be HC/PC as a "Commercially Made" period musket.

Another used gun to look for would be a Japanese/Miroku Brown Bess. They are not as pretty and some internal lock parts look downright crude, BUT the darn things seemed to work very well.

Of course, if your unit doesn't want or won't allow anything but he India Made guns, most of this information is moot.

Gus

 

[jbwilliams3]

In addition to what Artificer suggested, I would also take a quick read of THIS LINK. For early war continentals especially, units were armed with a wide variety of arms (and probably none with short land pattern King's Muskets).

I like Artificer's suggestion of a reworked Pedersoli to look like a contract musket - that would be a lot less work than a reworked Indian gun (which are stocked with teak, btw).

It all depends on just how accurate you want to be, which is also informed by the unit you are joining. Unfortunately, the most historically accurate firearms are rarely ones we can purchase off the shelf. But, who knows? If you look around, you just may find what you're looking for ready-made for sale on Track of the Wolf or somewhere.

 

[spudnut]

I have owned two india made guns and wouldnt hesitate bjying from veteran. My only complaint with mine was a very heavy trigger pull but mine were from middlesex and are easily fixed if you have a flintlock gunsmith around, some are a bjt clunky on the wood but if viewrdas a kit they are great, be sure you learn proper loading AND cleaning to keep it in good and safe operation.even a neglected pedersoli can be a danger, If you can find an old japenese mitiku they are good guns, stay away from that fantasy bess trade gun over at Dixie,its a nice gun but a Bess soldiers gun never had that dragon side plate

 

[pargent]

Unless you get an original , or custom made , the Pedersoli will be the best avail it's only fault is it is a bit generic with it's lock marks for Yanks :grin:

 

[Greg Wesley]

I picked up a used Pedersoli Bess carbine late last fall. Big mistake because the Colonel of our militia unit promoted me

 

[Mickc01]

Gretting Magnus and welcome to the forum,
Another vote for the Pedersoli. Not the carbine and not the trade gun. Get the full length, second model Brown Bess and you can't go wrong. Usually Cabella's will have a few in stock (or order one online) and their prices are competitive. I promise you that you will not regret it....Mick C

 

[colmoultrie]

As Gus says, the Miroku Bess cleans up nicely with sling swivels and a bit of stain.

The lock, unlike the Pedersoli, is correct to the 1767 pattern, according to Eric Goldstein's book. Both the Pedersoli and the Pedersoli are a mixture of features from different models of Bess, so they're a wash on that score. I believe the Pedersoli uses walnut stock, but the Miroku used a Japanese cherry.
On the other hand, the used Miroku often runs cheaper than a used Pedersoli - another benefit in my book.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Some of the muskets made in India do indeed suffer from quality issues.

Some of the muskets made in India as firearms are subject to proof testing and quality inspections before being sold as firearms.

My unit has experience with muskets from Pedersoli, Mirouku, Narraganset Arms, Middlesex Village, and Loyalist Arms. As we portray a British unit in the French and Indian War, our Pedersoli and Mirouku Besses are not correct since they are short Land Pattern and we should all be carrying Long Land Patterns, but when our members keep them clean and in serviceable condition, they are reliable. The Middlesex Village guns are generally okay, but there have been issues with getting the proper stock stain and general reliability. Of the India made guns we have had the best results with the Loyalist Arms Long Land Patterns. These have been the most reliable with firing blanks and while I know of one that had a bent barrel that made live fire less than accurate, I can recommend Loyalist Arms. Our unit does not have any experience with Veteran Arms.

There are those that put all India manufactured muskets in the category of junk. That is not the case. Many of the guns are made and safe for use. Put your concerns to the other members of your unit and base your choice on their experience.

 

[kingsax26]

Just my experience, I bought a Curry gun from veteran arms. A charleville to be exact, and it was "ok" . I had Dave Person who s a member of t he forum rework, and reharden all of the components. From day one I got about 30 shots out of the frizzen and then it was dead. the internal components were not properly hardened, the actuall assembly of the lock was poor, drilled holes were misaligned ..dave did an outstanding job fixing what he could. but some issues were just not fixable. After spending $$ to ahve the lock reworked it was a consistent shooter.... but. If I did it again...I would buy the pedersoli

 

[dave_person]

Hi Magnus,
There has been much acrimonious debate about India-made guns on this and other forums. Let me give the perspective of someone who routinely fixes, refurbishes, and makes rifles, muskets, and pistols for reenactors. Many people raise concerns about the safety of the barrels of India-made guns. I am not aware of any unambiguous and verifiable evidence that those barrels are unsafe. However, I do have concerns about the locks. I've repaired and worked over a dozen or so locks of India-made guns from Middlesex Valley Traders and Veteran Arms. The problems ranged from improperly hardened parts such as tumblers, misaligned screws, frizzens that do not fit well over the pans, and total lack of tuning and spring balancing. The photos below show the tumbler, sear screw, and lockplate of one of those guns.

If you consider an India-made gun as a 3/4 completed kit that you finish, they can be made into serviceable arms as long as you make sure the lock is functioning properly, safely, and reliably.

Many folks are attracted to reenacting because they can fight in battles and shoot off their guns a lot. Others like the living history angle and enjoy speaking about and demonstrating their clothing and equipment to the public closeup and sometimes one-on-one. For the former, India-made guns that are worked over for safety and reliability are probably fine. Again, I emphasize the lock because if you are loading from a paper cartridge, you place the lock at half ****, prime the pan and close the frizzen, and then load at the muzzle. That lock better be safe at half **** (the leather hammer stall helps here). No one is taking a close look at the guns on the battlefield and from a distance they can pass as authentic. For those that spend time talking with the public close up, the India guns are not so good because they don't look or feel right and the quality of construction does not represent 18th century standards, which were not crude. Anyone who has handled and restored original Brown Besses knows how well they were made, inside and out. Again, you can work over the India guns and improve their appearance with respect to historical standards. The same can be said about Pedersoli and Miroku Besses. They are generally better but they are not up to the standards of fit and function demanded by ordnance inspectors during the 18th century. They can benefit from a work over too as shown in the photos below of a heavily used Pedersoli that I refurbished.

The bottom line, is that an appropriate model gun (for your unit) from Veteran Arms likely can be made to work acceptably for your purpose, but don't expect that to be the case with the gun right out of the shipping crate. Almost certainly, you will have to work on the gun or have someone knowledgeable work it over. Pedersolis and Mirokus are generally better but even those gun benefit from lock tuning and refurbishing. You might also consider looking at military flintlocks for sale on Track of the Wolf's website. Occasionally, they have well made muskets for sale by knowledgeable builders. They are more expensive but much better guns.

dave

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK some things NOT mentioned....,

ASK the guy at your unit WHY he recommends that particular musket. THEN ask what else you can use.

Forget short muskets. The Artillery Carbine was made matching LLP muskets, NOT as a short SLP.

From a historical standpoint, and according to a paper by Dr. DeWitt Baily Phd..., the vast majority of the Bess muskets used in the AWI would have been a 1740's version with a wooden ramrod. Many of the British muskets may have have been converted over to metal ramrods (but not so the American ones), and some might have had modernized locks and nose caps (but not those already in America). The SLP from Pedersoli was probably a rare type of musket during the war.

Artillery carbines were used by NCO's in the AWI, but not the F&I, and would have had wooden ramrods...so if you're going to do F&I too...best bang-for-your-buck is a full sized musket.

A militia man would simply NOT have had a SLP Bess such as Pedersoli makes. Too rare. The only reason the Pedersoli SLP Bess and it's close neighbor made in Japan are found all over the place and "accepted" is because for decades Reenactors had no choice but to use them.

I have TWO Jap Bess, and in the past owned two Pedersoli Bess. I still own Pedersoli guns, and one is a tradegun. I also owned Four India origin muskets & trade guns, all from Loyalist Arms. One of the full sized muskets I sold to another reenactor, I still own three. I've never had an ignition problem with any of the India origin muskets, or the trade gun. I do shoot them live, and never had a problem.

The only reason I know of now that one would recommend the Veteran Arms muskets is their 1740 Long Land (1st Model) Brown Bess has a wooden rammer, no nose cap, and older style lock though it does have a bridled pan. This, from what we know at this time, was the most likely configuration of The Bess at the start of the AWI, especially for folks in the colonies. IF I was ordering a custom Bess made with Rifle Shopp parts, capable of fitting in both in the F&I and AWI, it would conform to this style. IF I found I broke a lot of ramrods, I would then pay to have it converted to take a metal rammer. At the time I bought my current LLP from Loyalist Arms, the model with the improvements was thought to be the most correct version for British. Since that time they have found this isn't quite the case.

The Veteran Arms 1748 Bess and the Loyalist Arms "1728 Transitional Bess" both have the improved lock, nose cap and metal rammer, and thus show the improvements made between 1748 and 1756, probably not seen much in the colonies, compared to the earlier versions which had been "upgraded".


So again, back to my original point, ask them why that specific musket is recommended.

LD

 

[Artificer]

LD,

With the most sincere respect, have to disagree with a few things you posted.

The Sergeant Major is never wrong, but in this case he is a bit light on being right. :grin: :haha:

From a historical standpoint, and according to a paper by Dr. DeWitt Baily Phd..., the vast majority of the Bess muskets used in the AWI would have been a 1740's version with a wooden ramrod. Many of the British muskets may have have been converted over to metal ramrods (but not so the American ones), and some might have had modernized locks and nose caps (but not those already in America).

Dave, I think you have two wars mixed up. This was true in the FIW, but not the AWI. Bailey wrote that some units that had Steel Rammer muskets (whilst stationed in the UK) turned them in for Wooden Rammer Muskets before coming over here for the FIW, though he does not mention which Units that I have found. British Ordnance decided to retain the Steel Rammer Muskets for the units that would fight on the Continent, because the threat from Continental Enemies was greater than in America.

However, by the AWI, this turned around where most units were re-armed with Steel Rammer Muskets before coming here, if they were still armed with Wood Rammer Muskets when they were picked to come over. Many of these units turned in their Muskets and were re-armed from Dublin Castle specifically with Steel Rammer Muskets. I don't have the information off the top of my head on all the units, but I do remember the 23rd was one of them. British Ordnance determined the "best muskets" would go to the colonies as this was a fight to keep their colonies, this until at least the French entered the war and made it a World War.

The SLP from Pedersoli was probably a rare type of musket during the war.

British Marines used an SLP as early as Breed's (Bunker) Hill and some units that came after that battle were armed with SLP's. Also, Bailey shows records of SLP's sent as replacements during the War to various British Units.

Artillery carbines were used by NCO's in the AWI, but not the F&I, and would have had wooden ramrods...so if you're going to do F&I too...best bang-for-your-buck is a full sized musket.

Artillery/Sergeants/Highlander Carbines were indeed used during the FIW and in some notable quantity. Some Highlander Units came over later in the war with them and other Units like the 42nd RHR were rearmed here with them. The Highlanders really liked them. They were also issued to British Light Infantry units, BUT the LI asked to turn them in for full length muskets as they found the carbines not robust enough for their taste. British LI units especially liked the French Muskets captured at Fort Louisbourg.

A militia man would simply NOT have had a SLP Bess such as Pedersoli makes. Too rare. The only reason the Pedersoli SLP Bess and it's close neighbor made in Japan are found all over the place and "accepted" is because for decades Reenactors had no choice but to use them.

LD

For the most part, I very much agree. However, some Militia Units were armed with Colony purchased Commercial Contract SLP's, though that would be pretty much restricted to those units.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

The same can be said about Pedersoli and Miroku Besses. They are generally better but they are not up to the standards of fit and function demanded by ordnance inspectors during the 18th century. They can benefit from a work over too as shown in the photos below of a heavily used Pedersoli that I refurbished.


dave

Dave does an excellent job of refurbishing Besses from what I have seen and read of his work on this forum. He also goes into more detail on it than most Unit Artificers or Armourers do.

I wound up having to refit the bottom of the frizzen to the top of the pan on my new Pedersoli Musket purchased around 2000. I also had to do it on many of our Unit's Muskets, both Pedersoli's and Jap/Miroku muskets. I never had to do that on my circa 1974 Pedersoli Carbine when I shot it a whole lot, BUT I rarely did the Drill movement "Cast About" with that Carbine, like most reenactors do.

From the Drill Manual, after you prime the pan and close the Hammer/Steel (period terms for what we call the Frizzen) over the pan; at the order "Cast About," one turns the musket and drops it lightly to the ground to load the barrel. If the bottom of the Frizzen does not fit rather closely on the top of the Pan, much or even most of the powder in the Pan will be thrown out during this movement. Little or no powder in the pan means the Musket is almost sure to misfire and not go off after the order is given to fire. A rather large percentage of Miroku and even Pedersoli Besses in our Unit had that problem. Once I refitted the frizzens to the pans, though, that problem was solved.

I also did various maintenance of most of our muskets as well, but many muskets in my unit were well worn and some rather old reproductions. Had to reharden a couple frizzens and other things.

The most unusual thing I ran across was a Miroku Bess I had to shorten the bottom of the trigger so it would not hit the inside of the trigger guard as the trigger was pulled. When it did that, it did not allow the sear to be pushed high enough in the lock so it would clear the half **** notch. That one about drove me crazy until I figured that out, as I had already done everything else to fix the problem and it was still catching on the Half ****.

So I agree that Pedersoli's and Miroku Bess's can benefit from some tuning (and a lot of rework to make them the most correct they can be), but not normally as much as what I have read/heard about some India made guns.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oh, the Muskets sent over by the British for Loyalist troops in the AWI, were overwhelmingly Wood Rammer Muskets, according the inventories in Bailey's works.

I very much agree many, if not most Patriot forces would have had Wood Rammer Muskets as well, though some were converted to using Steel Rammers.

Cuthbertson wrote of many problems with Steel Rammers and broken Rammer Retainer Springs during his time in the FIW on the Continent. This indicates the Muskets his regiment were armed with in the FIW were converted from Wood Rammer to Steel Rammer muskets and not "newly made" P1756 muskets. So even some British Units on the Continent, during the FIW, did not have the best and most modern up-to-date arms when they left for the Continent.

Gus

 

[magnusmd]

Thanks for all the great information!

From what I'm reading here and from what I've learned from my unit, I'm going to want an earlier long land model bess (I plan on portraying both early and late AWI, plus War of the Regulation).

This is going to be my first muzzle loader, so I think I want something a little less expensive to make my first-timer mistakes with. I had not heard of Loyalist Arms, so I'm looking at them as an option. There are a number of talented gunsmiths in my area who might be able to help me out if (when) I break something.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Do you think the Royal Marines under Pitcairn possibly carried the upgraded marine musket? That would be the pattern 1757 but upgraded in 1759 to include a steel rammer, rear ramrod thimble, flared first ramrod thimble, and brass nosecap. Superficially, it looks like the standard short land pattern of the time (pattern 1769).

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,
Do you think the Royal Marines under Pitcairn possibly carried the upgraded marine musket? That would be the pattern 1757 but upgraded in 1759 to include a steel rammer, rear ramrod thimble, flared first ramrod thimble, and brass nosecap. Superficially, it looks like the standard short land pattern of the time (pattern 1769).

dave

Dave,

You nailed it! Yes, that was the "Marine and Militia Pattern Musket 1759" the British Marines were armed with at Breed's Hill, according to Bailey and some other sources. Even though I have never re-enacted a British Marine, I have studied what they carried.

Here is a link to an original and it is marked as belonging to the Aberdeen Militia. I do not know of one that survives and marked to identify it with the British Marines, though. http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2562-358/

Gus