loooooooooong range gun

[arilar]

Thanks David,
Found a copy of "The target Rifle of Australia" but $84 was a little bit to much for the moment. Also found one "Gun Digest" of 1973 ,de luxe edition, on e-Bay but seller didnt ship overseas. The article in GD is side 29-42, by the way.
But now I am aware of where to find some more info.
ARILAR :: :thumbsup:

 

[jimbo15563]

RussT,

Navy Arms is a US distributor of Whitworth Rifles. I inquired about purchasing a barrel only and they referred me to EuroArms of America - [email protected]

This is the reply I got:

This is not an item we generally stock. The retail price is $469.05 plus shipping. We would have to order a Whitworth barrel from the manufacturer. This would take 6-8 months. It would be a Euroarms Whitworth barrel and not a Parker Hale barrel, which simply means the markings are different.
Thank you for your inquiry.
Euroarms of America, Inc.

What I'm thinking is that by the time I bought the barrel and have the underhammer built, I could buy a Navy Arms Whitworth, which retails for under $1200. Here are some pix:

http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/whit1.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/whit2.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/whit3.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/whit4.jpg

On the other hand, an underhammer with the Whitworth Barrel could be pretty nifty, too. It could be either traditional:

http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/underwhit1.jpg

Or with a more modern approach:

http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/underwhit2.jpg

Decisions! Decisions!

Jimbo

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I vote for the underhammer. In fact I am considering this route myself. It would be unique, and you would have very quick lock time. I think it could be brought in for less money than a Navy Arms Whitworth if you stocked it yourself.

 

[jimbo15563]

Questions for Ranger?

1. Have you come across any ballistics tables for the Whitworth?

2. I've never seen one close up and would appreciate some info on the barrel i.e. shape (round or hex?) (straight or tapered?)(diameter,etc) ramrod thimbles (number, location?)From this picture, it looks like it's round and squares off at the breech.

http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/whit2.jpg

Does it have a breech plug?

This would be very helpful to me in my underhammer project, as was your info on the stock drop affecting recoil.

Thanks,
Jimbo

 

[Tumblernotch]

Let me dig around and find it. I don't have any modern tables, but just results of Joseph Whitworth's tests and some of the small arms trials in England. I've got stuff scattered everywhere and it may be a little bit before I can get it together. If you're in a hurry you can go to:

www.lrml.org/technical/index.htm

and you can find information about Whitworth ballistics, history, etc. It even has a report written by Whitworth about the technology that he developed.

As for original Whitworths, the only ones I've got to see were behind glass cases many years ago so I can't tell you first hand about details on those. As for reproductions, I have a very low serial number Parker-Hale which I bought used over 20 years ago. The barrel is round and tapered. The outside diameter is basically the same as an Enfield rifle musket barrel, the only difference being the bore diameter. At the muzzle the O.D is .808 and at the breech the O.D. is .991 on mine. The breech diameter may be off a little since I didn't take the barrel out of the stock. Therefore, the wall thickness is a good bit greater. It doesn't really square off at the breech, it flattens at the top and looks like an extension of the tang.

There are no ramrod thimbles on a factory (original) Whitworth nor the repros. Some Civil War Whitworths were halfstocked after the War though, and had thimbles attached. Most all of the Manchester made Whitworths were 2 band rifles patterned after the Enfield. They were also stocked nearly to the muzzle and wouldn't accept a bayonet. Enfield Armory made Whitworths were similiar, though some had 3 clamping bands holding the barrel on. The trial Whitworths made at Enfield were identical to the musket except for the caliber and rifling. A few rare ones had a .564 bore and 1 in 25 rifling. Imagine the weight of that bullet! Mine measures .485 across the corners and .448 across the flats of the rifling.

The Parker-Hale Whitworth is patterned more after an Enfield rifle musket. The barrel at 36" overall is 3" shorter than the musket. Most original Whitworths had a 33" barrel, and others had a 36" barrel. The actual bore depth of mine is 34". It does have a standard breechplug, which when removed reveals the fact that the back of the breech is solid. The breech, containing the bolster, is screwed into the barrel. It apparently is solid in the rear. Though making the breech area stronger, it makes removing a stuck bullet by driving it out from the rear impossible without removing the entire breechpiece. I don't know if they still construct their barrels this way. I can see that the new Whitworths sold by Navy Arms are a little different in detail from the one I have, and all of the repros that I've seen including mine are sold with Enfield musket sights. Mine does have a globe front sight, and I believe the new ones do too. Many originals have a blade sight on the front. One thing that I wish was included on mine is provision for attaching the Davidson scope. I'm rather surprised that they didn't do that on the early repros. If I had the guts to do it, I would seriously consider making the fittings for it. I have noticed that the quality of the new rifles is not quite up to par with the early ones and of course none can match the originals.

As for the comments I made about recoil and stock drop, don't take my word for it. That's just my experience. The way you hold your rifles is no doubt different than mine. I'm used to more drop from firing longrifles and Springfield muskets. The Springfield's drop is not much different than the Whitworth or Enfield but the butt plate shape is, and that would be a factor. Some people find the Enfield type stock to be quite comfortable. Actually, I do myself, but this gun does kick hard with a standard load and there is a straighter line from muzzle to butt than on most muskets and rifles.

I hope you can make something of the mumbo-jumbo I just wrote and that it will help you. I'm hoping to take mine out Saturday and do some plinking with it at 100 yds. (All I have) I'm wanting to experiment with lighter loads and see if they will upset the cylindrical slugs I use into the rifling as well as the heavier loads do and also see if the factory sights will work better. I'm looking at adding a Vernier tang sight later as well as a new front sight.

If you can't find the ballistics table on the above sight, let me know and I will try to type up something from what I have if I can find it. And if you have any other questions feel free to ask and I'll try to answer the best I know how. You've probably discovered by now what some of these other guys already know. I'm pretty windy. :yakyak:

:thumbsup: :results:

 

Yea....but it's good wind....

Vic

 

[ResearchPress]

For original Whitworth rifles, have a look in the collecting section of my Long Range Muzzle Loader web site:
http://www.lrml.org/collecting/index.htm

The Parker-Hale Volunteer and Whitworth rifles are generic reproductions of a military match rifle, not of any specific manufacture. The only difference between the tow PH's is the form of rifling. Whitworth rifles also evolved into full match rifles, with half stock, pistol grip, no ram rod and target sights. See the pictures referred to above.

With regards to scope mounts for Whitworths, if you join the Long Range Muzzle Loader mailing list at Yahoo!Groups and look in the pictures section of the Group page you will find images of modern made scope mounts.

With regards to drop on the stock, once you start shooting prone at longer ranges the straighter stocks help. With the elevations required for long range the stock gets pushed lower in the shoulder and the heel from those with a lot of drop can give an uncomfortable felt recoil.

David

 

[Tumblernotch]

David, you have an excellent site with lots of good information on it. Good job.

I am aware of the Whitworth match rifles, but what little experience and study I have is limited to those sold to the Confederacy during the Late Unpleasantness. I do want to learn more about the post-war versions. I understand as well that the P-H repros are rather generic leaning in design more to the issue Enfields. It would have been nice if P-H had built some close replications of the Manchester Whitworths which seem to be the most common imports during the War.

As for scopes, a long 4X scope came with the rifle I have and it mounts slightly offset on top of the barrel, the rear mounting being made by removing the ladder sight, fitting the mount where the spring was and using the sight pin to fasten it. I used it when I reenacted as a sharpshooter, but due to looseness it wasn't feasible for live shooting. I would like to someday modify the gun for the wartime Davidson scope using the keyhole rear mount and the front shoe with windage knob. Maybe I'll feel more comfortable with my woodworking skills some day to cut out the required wood. I can make the metal parts for the mount.

I understand what you are saying about the prone shooting and agree. Most of the shooting I have done with this rifle has been on the bench and at short range where the barrel is level. At several degrees of elevation I can see where the straighter line stock would be an advantage. With too much drop and a more curved butt it would drive your right arm into the ground. For the enlightenment of those unfortunates who have never got to shoot a Whitworth, original or repro I can say that whoever says blackpowder rifles don't kick, but push, have never fired a Whitworth from a benchrest or prone position.

By the way, do you know when P-H began production of their Whitworths? Mine has a two digit serial number and the ones being offered now have at least five digits. I'm not familiar with their numbering system and don't know if it has been changed or if it is in the same sequence as the number on mine. I know mine is at least 25 years old.

Thanks for your input! I enjoy learning all I can about this weapon. I hope before long to get to do some long range shooting with it.
:thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Yeah, you know I can blow down a barbed wire fence with the gate open, don't ye? :crackup:

I'm goin' to try to shoot that thang Saturday, Vic. Weather is supposed to be fine! Stay tuned!
:thumbsup:

 

[ResearchPress]

Although not fortunate enough to own an original Whitworth, I know several people that do own and shoot them and have had opportunity to handle and shoot them myself. I even managed 2nd place in a 600yd match for Whitworth rifles last October, shooting a borrowed match rifle! ::

I'm not sure when the Whitworth was introduced but have pieced the following together from old Parker-Hale adverts:

P/61 Artillery Carbine was introduced 1972.
P/53 Enfield Rifle Musket was introduced 1974.
.451 Volunteer rifle (Rigby rifling) was introduced c1976.
P/58 Enfield Rifle was available in 1977.
By 1983 the Volunteer had been changed to Henry rifling and the Whitworth was available.

David

 

[Tumblernotch]

Thanks a lot, David. I obtained my Whitworth in 1984 and by then it had gotten quite a patina on the wood and metal which was obviously natural, so it was several years old. I'd guess it may have been introduced at least as early as the Rigby Volunteer. What do you think? The barrel number is 61, whether the 61st Whitworth barrel or 61st in the entire series, I don't know.

There is no bluing or color casehardening left on it. Bands are steel, rest of furniture is brass. There is an inverted dovetail shape block just to the rear of the rear sight, probably for some type of scope. I've never seen a mount that would fit it. The bottom sling swivel is mounted on the guard bow just like the muskets. With the patina and the dings it looks like an original that has been taken pretty good care of. I carried it for ten years portraying a sharpshooter and enjoyed a bit of notoriety as I was almost the only Whitworth sharphooter on the East Coast. The men in my unit could recognize me wherever I was by the bark of my rifle. I've only live fired it a few times, and tomorrow I hope to get going again. There is a 500 yd. range about an hour from me and some day I'd like to try some of that long range shooting. For now, 100 yds. will have to do.

Thanks again for the information. :master: Wish me luck!

:thumbsup:

 

[ResearchPress]

It would have been nice if P-H had built some close replications of the Manchester Whitworths which seem to be the most common imports during the War.

Not Civil War material, but I have been checking up with a friend today who knows someone who worked on the development of P-H muzzle loaders.

In the early eighties P-H were considering making a match rifle and they acquired an original Whitworth match rifle. The barrel on this rifle is very short (my friend now owns it) having been cut down at some time. This did not however matter to P-H who wished to use it as a 'template' for stock profile etc. For some reason I have yet to ascertain this project did not proceed, although detailed drawings had been prepared from the original Whitworth.

By the way, the original rifle is now rebarreled with a new full length barrel with Rigby rifling.

As yet I cannot pursue matters further as the contact who was at P-H is on holiday in New Zealand. I will try and find out more though in due course.

David

 

[Tumblernotch]

Thanks very much. I've been on the P-H website, but it's not much help since they were sold to that wholesaler. It would have been nice if they would release some of their production records from the past, but that would probably be asking too much. I know that mine was built no later than the mid-70's, but due to such a low serial number, I'm very curious.

I took mine to the range today and put over 40 rds. through it. At 100 yds. I just used 60 grs. of powder. I didn't get any tight groups yet due to some sighting problems, but I was pleased with the performance of the 560 gr. cylindricals I was using. 60 gr. charges are adequate to upset the slugs into the rifling. I plan to replace the globe sight with a blade sight and I'm needing to machine a new rear sight. Later, I plan to install a tang mounted aperature sight for long range. That's in the future though. It did very well offhand on sillouettes at 100 yds. There is a lot of potential with this rifle if equipped with sights suitable for my eyes. Now all I need is a good padded shooting jacket. Shooting over 40 rds. from the bench is a little wearing, even with a reduced charge.

I do thank you for your efforts to find the info I need. You don't have to go out of your way to do this, and I am grateful for your time. :thumbsup:

Bob

 

[jimbo15563]

Ranger et al,

Sorry to be a pain, but I have located a Whitworth Barrel. The description from the seller is as follows:

Yes we do have a barrel,.451 Parker Hale Whitworth barrel (no breech plug or tang)its 34 1/2" long, an original new one. What country are you from as this would reflect on price of carriage and also if we need import and export papers. The PH barrel we have has a muzzle dia of .811" and a breech dia of 1.105". Bearing in mind when the barrel is assembled it is finished to blend the tang in and to polish it so the diameters will be slightly different. The barrel has an open breech which takes a tang plug. The barrel is presently unfinished and will need proofing when the work is complete.

It appears that this barrel would be fairly easy to adapt to the H&A action. I replied to the email asking for a price quote.

Now for the big question :: Do I really want this barrel? My objective for building this underhammer is to create a truly unique muzzleloading rifle. I'm approaching it from the standpoint of creating a modern work of art - more like an Eames chair than a Chippendale. I envision it to look something like this:

http://users.adelphia.net/~purplelady_15563/images/poorbambi.jpg

I have an excellent gunsmith. (I have ten thumbs.) His 1000-yd centerfires win at Camp Perry. He also creates beautiful stocks, as well as case-hardened receivers. We've picked out a Curly Maple blank and will finish it dark to resemble Lancaster Maple, matched to the case-hardened receiver. We plan to add interchangeable barrels as it evolves. The first will be a fast-twist .54, followed by a rifled .62, a .62 smoothbore, and maybe the Whitworth. We project the completed cost with the first barrel to be somewhere around $1,000.

I'll doubt that I will ever shoot it at 1000 yards. I will probably use it for deer hunting and shorter range target shooting. Now for the dumb questions:

1. Would the Whitworth barrel be practical? Is the paper-patching easy to master, and how difficult is the bullet-swaging process? Or, would this be like driving a Maserati to the grocery store?

2. What would be a fair price to pay for this unfinished barrel?


I have gotten excellent advise from the members of this forum. Any opinions are welcome.

Thanks,
Jimbo

 

[Tumblernotch]

Jimbo, I don't know if I can be much help or not. This barrel would certainly make a unique rifle for you as well as a super accurate one if you can get proper bullets for it. If the price is within your budget it may be a good deal. I'm sorry I don't know what a fair price would be.
As for it's practicality, I know that it shoots good at all ranges. Also that it tends to foul easily and it's best to clean after each shot as the bullets whether hex shaped or cylindrical fit tight to begin with. If you want a hex mold, they are hard to come by and when found are very expensive. I use cylindricals in mine. I would like to have a hex mold someday. Recoil is moderate to heavy depending on your load. You're pushing a 500+ gr. bullet. You swage the cylindricals like you would any others. I'm in the process of trying to make another swage for mine (note I said trying ). I've not paper-patched any rounds yet but I am thinking of trying it. There is a section about this on the Long Range Muzzleloading site. With practice, it looks to be fairly easy but with my fumble fingers it probably wouldn't be for me.

Since I'm just now getting back into shooting the long range guns I'm probably not going to be much help as I said earlier. But, if the price is something you can handle and you have a good gunsmith to help, that barrel may be a very good addition. 'Twas me, if I could afford it, I would probably buy it. But, that's me. What little knowledge and experience I have is with military Whitworths and what you're working on is a somewhat different critter and something that I have wanted to do myself someday. I hope it comes out real good and if you get that barrel you'll have to let us know how it works out.
:thumbsup:

 

[ResearchPress]

UK Gunsmith Rex Holbrook was making underhammer rifles to order for a time. Below is a picture of a friend shooting his last month at 300 yards.

I think this one has a Rigby rifled barrel fitted. The rifles came with target sights and false muzzle. Weight is around 12lbs.

The Whitworth barrel would make an interesting arm, but not necesarily the most accurate. Paper patching is not difficult (nor is it absolutely necessary). You can find information on paper patching at www.lrml.org/technical/ammunition/patching.htm.

By far the most bullets fired through Whitworths in the rifle matches of the 19th Century were cylindrical. It was only the specialised long range marksmen that bought the manufactured Whitworth bullets. Hexagonal moulds are available, and the one most often cited as the best is made by Leon Kranen (in small batches). I think he sells them on ebay when available. He makes both a grease groove and paper patched bullet mould.

David

 

[Husky]

I bought one of Leon's moulds in December direct from him. I can't remember if he had the mould in stock at the time but at the most I waited maybe a week. His moulds are a work of art in themselves. The shipping was incredible also, from him to my door in two days.

Randall

 

[Tumblernotch]

Husky, how do you get in touch with Mr. Kranen? I'd be interested in buying one of his molds.

 

[arilar]

If you dont find Leon the mold can be ordered from www.stifters-gunflints.de. Look under kokillen at the shop and then you find them.
ARILAR :: :thumbsup:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Thanks a lot, Arilar. I found it. AuBer, Mein Gott! Sie ist zu kostspielig! :Please pardon my poor German. I had to react in German as the site is in German.) It is listed at 345 Euros. :shocking:Tell me if I'm wrong, but ain't the Euro and the US Dollar worth nearly the same now? I believe the Euro is worth a little more, but I don't keep up with the exchange rates. They look like real good molds but I'm afraid this poor boy is going to have to be happy with what he's got. :cry:Thanks again for the info!

Bob