Loyalist Arms Bess

[FlinterNick]

Well yes, most of them are good people - but we have our black sheeps also - same as you guys (pointing to DC...)



I am not offended in any way - sorry if my post leaves that impression.
And I am NOT defending Inidia made muskets - my post did not point in that direction.
All I can tell you is what I have learned about those guns while working on them and using them over the years.
We hab the discussion here about the Pedersoli Bess and many of the experts here (which I am definatly NOT!!) have pointed out, the Pedersoli Bess is by all means not OK for either FIW and AWI!

India made muskets offereing you the models you cannot get - at least not in my part of the woods - whitout spending 1000s of $$ on it.

theres no heresy

a few fellas i know purchased from middlesex, his muskets are not assembled well. The problems are internal parts are not case hardened screws are not tempered so theres lots stripping, breech plugs are not fit well..... dont get me started on his stocks, he uses some type of sticky shellac mastic as sealant. I know plenty of gunsmiths who dont recomend middlesex. The shop get my supplies at has had the same middlesex musket for sale for 4 years, the owner of shop cant the lock to work rights. Absolute junk.

 

[Ike Godsey]

a few fellas i know purchased from middlesex, his muskets are not assembled well. I know plenty of gunsmiths who dont recomend middlesex. The shop get my supplies at has had the same middlesex musket for sale for 4 years, the owner of shop cant the lock to work rights.

Well, there is no difference to the Italian makers.
Some of them make good guns, a few make guns in outstanding quality, but lacking the authenticy.

India muskets are the same.
There are many "plants" in India producing those guns. Some have a better quality than others,

And there is the point of the re-seller in your (and in my) country.
Some are interested in re-selling good quality, some are not. So some would by the better quality muskets, some will buy the lower end of the production line.

Fact 1 - India muskets are around since 20 years or so.
Fact 2 - India muskets have blowen up as did Pedersolis and custom gun(s) from US maker(s)
Fact 3 - India musktes are basicly a pre finished kit - well yes, some are some not.
Fact 4 - IF you plan to buy a India musket, talk to the dealer - and I do mean that - ask as many questions and request as many "extras" as you could (and fits in to the time you would like to recreate). Make your decision on buying there IF the answers you receive are OK for you and your needs.

Or... contact Loyalist Arms in Halifax CAN - VERY friendly people that are taking care of all your needs and requests. They sell the better quality India muskets and (at least we here) are VERY satisfied with Loyalist Arms.

 

[firemanjim68]

Would you mind posting pics of your ranger musket? I'd like to see what l can look forward to from someone who owns one. I can't find a single decent pic of a ranger musket anywhere.

I'm buying a ranger musket from Loyalist Arms but eventually l hope to have a builder make me one. The one that Sitting Fox has on his website with the curly maple stock was what l had originally ordered but l canceled during the whole covid lock down.
He had the thing built anyway and I'm glad l canceled since it really wasnt at all what l was hoping for.

Anyway, if you have any pics of your ranger musket l'd love to see them.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Would you mind posting pics of your ranger musket? I'd like to see what l can look forward to from someone who owns one. I can't find a single decent pic of a ranger musket anywhere.

I did already in a other thread but could not find it right now, so I will post it here again.

As no one can clearly say, if or if not a "Ranger Musket" was made out of Long Land Pattern muskets or of any other captured and re-issued French muskets (1728 or likewise) or even if the Ranger(s) brought their own musket a so called "Ranger Musket" could be pretty much everything in look, style and caliber. That said, all we know about "Ranger Musket(s)" is, they had a Lock, a Barrel, a Stock and some Fruniture.

With all that I can find in books, and what the speciallists here in he board pointed out, I really do not think any Ranger Musket was made up from a regular LLP by cutting the muzzle-end down to around 37".

So my "Ranger Musket" is made up from French and Spanish parts, that have been put together to a fullstock musket with a .72 cal. 43" barrel. That resambles pretty much what was done back in the days with parts from "broken muskets" to make something useful out of them.

This is what I think a musket looks like, when the Rangers have been ordered "...to bring their own arms..."

I'm buying a ranger musket from Loyalist Arms

Very friendly people at Loyalist Arms trying to respond on the needs of the customer as I stated above.

 

[FlinterNick]

Would you mind posting pics of your ranger musket? I'd like to see what l can look forward to from someone who owns one. I can't find a single decent pic of a ranger musket anywhere.

I'm buying a ranger musket from Loyalist Arms but eventually l hope to have a builder make me one. The one that Sitting Fox has on his website with the curly maple stock was what l had originally ordered but l canceled during the whole covid lock down.
He had the thing built anyway and I'm glad l canceled since it really wasnt at all what l was hoping for.

Anyway, if you have any pics of your ranger musket l'd love to see them.

There really is no standard “ranger” musket. The original muskets for the queens and kings rangers I’ve seen at Yorktown, Williamsburg and Ticonderoga were shortland patterns Of the 1769, and 1777 Liege pattern muskets.

in my opinion its most likely a shortland bess that was used by most rangers with a mix of other styles likely french, dutch and trade gun.

Hate to say it but I think the TV Show Turn had it right. When Simco took over the queens rangers, the rangers were turned into a light infantry style Division but operated as irregulars. Light infantry were typically armed with Brown Bess Muskets or Light Infantry Fusils.

Butlers ranger muskets have been found with the markings Kings Rangers.

 

[firemanjim68]

I hear you, but the ranger musket l was referring to was the one that Loyalist Arms sells that l thought Ike owned.
So if anyone has pics of that musket other than the tiny useless ones on the internet, I would like to see them.


Nice musket by the way, Ike.

 

[Musketeer]

I've always found those bolt-on bridles interesting. Maybe not as strong as a bridle that's integral to the pan, but an interesting way of giving far more support to the frizzen than an totally unbridled one.

 

[FlinterNick]

I've always found those bolt-on bridles interesting. Maybe not as strong as a bridle that's integral to the pan, but an interesting way of giving far more support to the frizzen than an totally unbridled one.

According to Erikson‘s book, the french found the M1717 bridal to be ‘impractical’ And it was quickly eliminated from future patterns. I’m guessing it didn’t provide enough benefit to meet its cost measures. The cost of steel in the 18th century was pretty high, which is why the pan bridle was eliminated with the 1746 Charleville For wartime economics.

The M1717 is regarded by most arms historians as a poorly designed musket. The lock, barrel attachment system and ramrod often needed servicing in the field.

Today, we can make the reproduction guns work better with modern day parts, only a very small number of these muskets were made in comparison to the 1728.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve seen people add those bridal s to guns without a bridal pan. You can easily make one from 1/8 thick steel. It really depends on how the frizzen screw is set up, if its the equivalent of a #10 or 12 bolt its probably not going to make much of a difference, heavier shouldered bolts work pretty well for bridales pans. If the bolt is around #6 or #8, I could see the need for it.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Nice musket by the way, Ike.

Thank you kindly and it is indeed and its a nice shooter too - given the fact it is still a 43" barreled .72 caliber gun, it is heavy compared to a 36" english fowler. It is strong enought to be draged through the woods.

and BTW, I am with FlinterNick on that - I am in doubt, that a Long Land Pattern musket has been cut down to a 36" or even 37" barrel lengt to make a "Carbine" or "Ranger Musket" out of it. So I believe the "Ranger Musket" you're referring to might not exist.

 

[Ike Godsey]

The M1717 is regarded by most arms historians as a poorly designed musket. The lock, barrel attachment system and ramrod often needed servicing in the field.

Interesting - cause thats exactly the way the Brits made their famous Brown Bess, most if not all Long Rifles have the same pinned barrel system... ...Same is true for the ramrod and its pipes...
Also locks are held in place by two screws - same as on the Bess...

That said, I personally like the way the French 1717 lock and its vertical frizzen is made. It is by far a much stronger system than the unbridled locks of the famous TULLE muskets.

 

[firemanjim68]

Lol,

I forget that most times people here are really big time history buff reenactors who keep thinking that I'm referring to an actual historical ranger musket which l am not.

I am referring to the ranger muskets sold by Loyalist Arms only and nothing more.

While l was an 1800s Texas Ranger reenactor at one time and have nothing but respect for history buffs and reenactors, l love BP guns for pleasure shooting and even hunting.

That being the case l don't have a persona I'm trying to create nor am l looking for a historically accurate ranger carbine for reenacting purpose.

I'm only interested in the ranger musketoon that Loyalist Arms offers and any decent pics of it so l know what I'll be getting into and what mods to make if necessary.
That kind of stuff from someone who owns one is what I'm interested in if anybody has one out there.

Sorry for any misunderstandings.

 

[Columbus]

Lol,

I forget that most times people here are really big time history buff reenactors who keep thinking that I'm referring to an actual historical ranger musket which l am not.

I am referring to the ranger muskets sold by Loyalist Arms only and nothing more.

While l was an 1800s Texas Ranger reenactor at one time and have nothing but respect for history buffs and reenactors, l love BP guns for pleasure shooting and even hunting.

That being the case l don't have a persona I'm trying to create nor am l looking for a historically accurate ranger carbine for reenacting purpose.

I'm only interested in the ranger musketoon that Loyalist Arms offers and any decent pics of it so l know what I'll be getting into and what mods to make if necessary.
That kind of stuff from someone who owns one is what I'm interested in if anybody has one out there.

Sorry for any misunderstandings.

 

[Columbus]

What do they call it on their website? Can't seem to find anything called a Ranger Musketoon.

 

[firemanjim68]

It's called the Long Land Pattern Musketoon on their site

 

[Ike Godsey]

I am referring to the ranger muskets sold by Loyalist Arms only and nothing more.

Here is one from Sittiing Fox

http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/f-334/
They state:

The lock is the large Bess style flint lock marked as originating from the Dublin Castle Armory. The vent is in the proper sunrise position for better ignition.


This lock is completely assembled tempered, hardened and tuned in the USA.

The lock - as it looks to me - is a India made lock (see the two screws behind the hammer, as well as the short top jaw screw with hole) that is reworked.

 

[firemanjim68]

ROFLMBO,

I appreciate your looking out for a brother there Ike so please forgive me, but I have to laugh.
Again, nothing against you 'pard, but this whole ranger musket thing has been a source of heartbreak and frustration for two years now.

First, there was the fiasco with MVTC........nuff said.

Then there's that ranger musket from Sitting Fox that you posted there which is actually a custom order that I cancelled mostly because of the financial hardships that came from the COVID lockdown but even more so because I saw that he used Indian parts in that gun.

I have nothing against Ray Franks in fact, he's worked on a couple of my guns in the past but after putting down a $500 deposit to cover the cost of just the stock alone, I was floored when I saw the pics of the lock as well as the mediocre inletting which is why I decided to buy a Pedersoli carbine instead.

Problem is everyone wants a premium price for their carbine if you can even find somebody wanting to sell.

Now after all that banging my head against a wall for nothing for the past two years I've finally decided to buy the Loyalist Arms musketoon.

Now if I could only just get a couple of nice pictures of the *^$%%#$@@!!#!! thing from someone who actually owns one......lol.

 

[eggwelder]

Ask loyalist for some better pictures. It may take a day or two to get them, but they`ve come thru for me before

 

[FlinterNick]

Here is one from Sittiing Fox

http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/f-334/
They state:



The lock - as it looks to me - is a India made lock (see the two screws behind the hammer, as well as the short top jaw screw with hole) that is reworked.

The lock is Indian Made the shape of the fintcock is too chubby, frizzen and frizzen spring are not shaped right.

 

[FlinterNick]

I know someone who took a 3rd model Brown Bess and redesigned it to a Revolutionary War style Sergeants Carbine. The third model Bess was an Indian made gun.

The lock was redone to resemble a smaller Bess Lock issued around 1776.

The stock was reshaped and a new side plate and butt plate was added. Wrist plate was added.

There are so many types and styles of Brown Bess Carbines, Musketoons and fusils on the Indian made products.

Just watch out for the teak, horrible gunstock wood.