Loyalist Arms Bess

[Ike Godsey]

...all I would add is a nose cap, from shiet metal. I am not sure if in brass or copper. ...

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

ike

 

[Artificer]

...all I would add is a nose cap, from shiet metal. I am not sure if in brass or copper. ...

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

ike

Ike,

Neither David or I are trying to nitpick or be critical of you, but the highlighted words above are confusing. Please allow me to explain it in the following way.

A Nose Band was a strip of sheet metal that was wrapped around the front of the stock. This left the wood at the front of the stock exposed or not covered by metal. Photo's on pages 19 and 26 in the book The Brown Bess, by Goldstein and Mowbray show the Nose Band that was added on a Pattern 1730 LLP.

This linked picture of a reproduction Wheel lock gun shows how the nose band leaves the wood exposed at the front of the stock - similar to a Brown Bess Nose Band. http://www.engerisser.de/Bilder/Waffen/RSM_vorn.jpg

The Nose Cap was cast solid with metal that covered the front of the stock wood, as well as going around the stock. Though the next link shows a later period Bess Nose Cap, it illustrates what I am referring to: http://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/nosecap003.jpg

On page 52 of The Brown Bess by Goldstein and Mowbray, they show three photo's of the cast Nose Cap that was first used on the Pattern 1748 LLP. However, it is difficult to see the metal does indeed go over the front of the stock.

On page 64 of the same book, there is a close up of a P1756 cast Nose Cap that you can see how the metal goes over the front of the stock.

Ike, I know that you know the difference between a Nose Band and a Nose Cap. I also sometimes slip up and write one word when I meant the other.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Gus,

thank you for clearing the dust :thumbsup:

I was always thinking a nose "cover" from sheet metal was made out of two parts (band and front part) and soldered together.
Just like the copper one in Goldstein/Mowbrays book on page 45.
It looks like it is closed in the front.

Am I wrong on that one?

Ike (the one with the dim eyes)

 

[Artificer]

Gus,

thank you for clearing the dust :thumbsup:

I was always thinking a nose "cover" from sheet metal was made out of two parts (band and front part) and soldered together.
Just like the copper one in Goldstein/Mowbrays book on page 45.
It looks like it is closed in the front.

Am I wrong on that one?

Ike (the one with the dim eyes)

Ike, I hope I can explain this well so I don't confuse you, others and even myself. :grin:

It is true that when only small numbers of Nose Caps were required by individual gunsmiths, they often made them by bending sheet metal and brazing on a front metal cover to make a solid, one piece Nose Cap. It looks like the Nose Cap on page 45 was made that way.

However, when large quantities were required for Military Guns, it was MUCH more cost effective to Cast the Nose Caps. This was normally done by Tradesmen called "Brass Founders," who heated brass to a molten stage in ceramic crucibles and poured the molten metal into molds to cast them into shape. Then they cut and filed off the casting gates and filed and polished the surface metal that would show on the outside of the gun.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Gus,

by all thats said, I think I would go with the copper one.
Here in Germany I am 100% sure it will be unique.

Ike

 

[Artificer]

That would be great for the Civilian Impression you wrote about.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

That would be great for the Civilian Impression you wrote about.

Gus

Yes, maybe. Maybe not. As I see it, the LLPs in Goldstein/Mowbrays book have been issued and uprgaded in the field.
So I believe a LLP with a copper two parted "nose cap" could also be for a military impression.

Ike

 

[Artificer]

That would be great for the Civilian Impression you wrote about.

Gus

Yes, maybe. Maybe not. As I see it, the LLPs in Goldstein/Mowbrays book have been issued and uprgaded in the field.
So I believe a LLP with a copper two parted "nose cap" could also be for a military impression.

Ike

Ike,

There is original documentation that at times Regimental CO's paid for gunsmithing work done by "Country Gunsmiths" both in garrison in the British Isles and overseas. So, yes it is possible, but my own feeling is they would have stuck to the "standard" brass metal for Muskets in the hands of Active British Regular Regiments. Yet, anything was possible, especially for the Regiments overseas.

If that copper nose band or cap was put on Muskets for an Active British Regular Regiment, I personally believe it would have been a really rare conversion.

Of course it is your Musket and I am not trying to tell you what you have to do.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Of course it is your Musket and I am not trying to tell you what you have to do.

Gus

Yes, I am sure of this.
All I can say is, I really like the copper one :wink:

Ike

 

[Hayfoot]

I've had two of the Loyalist Bess's for over 7 years. A 1728 and a 1742 model. My biggest complaint? The internals of the 1728 lock. The only parts of the lock that have survived intact are the lock plate, cock and the frizzen and feather spring. The main spring had to be hand made for that lock as no other main is interchangeable without a good deal of work and refitting. It was too weak for the size and had to be replaced, the sear spring broke after only a span of two years and the sear and tumbler required a good deal of hand work before they worked smooth and crisp. I replaced the trigger guard on the 42 to the correct type as well as fitting a correct tip on the wooden 28 ram rod, the first pipe and it's placement and the sling swivel placement were not correct. The fore stock and the comb of both stocks were reworked and thinned out as they were too thick. This I didn't mind doing as it personalizes the piece and you get a good deal of satisfaction in such improvements or at least I do. I just ordered a new 1728 lock from Loyalist so well see what this one looks like on the inside! I'll post some pics as soon as I can. All in all they have both done good service and the cost was a factor in the purchase.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Sorry to hear that.
What about the other lock from the 1742?
Does it still work?

Ike

 

[Hayfoot]

Ike,
Yup the 42 has never had an issue except reshaping the stock just a tad as it was a beast of excessive wood. The 42 works great. The only things I replace was some of the brass as some of the Indian casting just didn't cut it for me.

 

[Hayfoot]

Ike,
If your interested in some good research material there are a couple of books I could suggest that get down to specifics in most cases and i have found them very helpful:
1. Red Coat and Brown Bess by Anthony D. Darling.
2. Pattern Dates for British Small Arms 1718 - 1783 by De Witt Bailey.
3. British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740 -1840 by De Witt Bailey.

 

[Artificer]

Those are excellent recommendations.

I also have these in my library amoung others;

1. British Military Longarms, 1715-1865 by Bailey This book was first printed in the 70's and one of the earliest works to go into such detail. It was THE book in the 70's. However, I would not recommend searching for it as the information is covered in more recent books.

2. Small Arms of the British Forces 1664-1815 by Bailey This book "fleshes out" and adds much more information on how the guns were used and goes into much more detail on accoutrements than Bailey's earlier work, Pattern Dates for British Ordnance Small Arms, 1718 - 1783 However, both books complement each other very well and it is great to be able to go back and forth between them for information and pictures.

3. The Brown Bess; An Identification Guide and Illustrated Study of Britain's Most Famous Musket by Erik Goldstein and Stuart Mowbray This book has fabulous photo's and details not found in other works. If someone is new to studying the Brown Bess, this would be the first book I would recommend followed by Bailey's two books mentioned in paragraph 2. above.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Thank you.

I have the first one on your list, as well as

Goldsteins "Bess Book"
"Small Arms of the British Forces in America" by Mr. Bailey
Bill Ahearns Book "Muskets of the American Revolution and the French & Indian War"

as well as some others - Oh and the "Enceclopedia of the American Revolution" by Mr. Neumann.

And the best one of all - YOU guys here :wink:

Ike

 

[Hayfoot]

You are correct Gus! You can never have too many books....or guns :grin:

 

[Artificer]

Absolutely!! :grin:

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

You are correct Gus! You can never have too many books....or guns :grin:

Well, you're right.
The problem is, the most books are not on sale over here. So I have to get them shipped overseas.
Just an example: A facebook friend send me a used TRS catalog. Shipping costs 32US$.

See the problem? :td:

Ike

 

[Hayfoot]

Well, to put it lightly..That sucks!

 

[Ike Godsey]

Well, to put it lightly..That sucks!

you name it!

Its with everything I wanna get from the US.

Here is a stroy around the order of my Bess.
I was trying to order my Bess from my preferred dealer in the US. He told me (in short) that he cannot ship it to Germany 'cause its too long - hence more than 60 inches.

So he told me go to Loyalist Arms, what I did. They are in Canada - they have the same quality guns, but other shipping requirements.

So I got my Bess from them. As they shipped it, they gave me a tracking number (UPS).
I followed the tracking and tell you what, from Halifax, they first transported my Bess to the UPS hub in KENTUCKY!!!!

There are things in ths world, I do not have to understand - do you?

Ike