- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 12,721
- Reaction score
- 6,848
Enjoy it for the GR that it is.
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Lyman GPR Flint: Fantasy Piece?
- Thread starter Smokey Plainsman
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
kansas_volunteer
45 Cal.
Well, to add to the discussion, a couple of things that can be found in the gunsmithing part of the forum.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/222175/post/581414/hl//fromsearch/1/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/220641/post/564157/hl//fromsearch/1/
The ideas at these posts will tell you how to make the GPR more Hawken-like, but I like to think they tell you how to make the GPR into a very generic Plains rifle.
Using the suggestions for improving the GPR, and installing a RPL lock and Deerslayer triggers will give you very nearly a "real" Plains rifle in appearance, or Hawken if that's what you would like to call it.
There would be two issues left to prevent the rifle from being considered truly authentic: the nose cap/entry thimble design and the presence of lettering on the barrel. There is probably nothing of a practical nature than can be done to correct the former, but the later can be dealt with. Those with experience say the lettering can be removed by first using a hammer and punch over the lettering to obliterated as much as possible. The lettering is rolled in and the edges somewhat raised so punching knocks some of the steel back into the grooves of the letters. Follow the punching with draw filing and the lettering can be entirely eliminated.
A none issue, but something I'd like to do to my GPR is install a simple patch box.
With some corrections the GPR can be taken very, very nearly out of the "fantasy" rifle category and into the authentic Plains rifle category, and if you want to call it a Hawken you wouldn't be far from wrong. I understand without making any changes a GPR can be accepted into some PC/HC rendezvous. I think with the changes it might be accepted into some of the more strict events.
Some of these changes would add consider expense to the basic GPR kit. At that point it might be better to just go ahead and buy an actual Hawken rifle kit from one of the suppliers. But if you were to build the kit and then gradually make some effort to make it more authentically "real," then the cost added to the kit price might be easily justified. Build the "fantasy" rifle to start shooting and then gradually make it "real" as time and money allow.
Oh, and one final issue. The GPR stock is European walnut and not Amerkin black walnut. So, finishing the stock in a way that looks more like black walnut and less like European would be in order.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/222175/post/581414/hl//fromsearch/1/
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/220641/post/564157/hl//fromsearch/1/
The ideas at these posts will tell you how to make the GPR more Hawken-like, but I like to think they tell you how to make the GPR into a very generic Plains rifle.
Using the suggestions for improving the GPR, and installing a RPL lock and Deerslayer triggers will give you very nearly a "real" Plains rifle in appearance, or Hawken if that's what you would like to call it.
There would be two issues left to prevent the rifle from being considered truly authentic: the nose cap/entry thimble design and the presence of lettering on the barrel. There is probably nothing of a practical nature than can be done to correct the former, but the later can be dealt with. Those with experience say the lettering can be removed by first using a hammer and punch over the lettering to obliterated as much as possible. The lettering is rolled in and the edges somewhat raised so punching knocks some of the steel back into the grooves of the letters. Follow the punching with draw filing and the lettering can be entirely eliminated.
A none issue, but something I'd like to do to my GPR is install a simple patch box.
With some corrections the GPR can be taken very, very nearly out of the "fantasy" rifle category and into the authentic Plains rifle category, and if you want to call it a Hawken you wouldn't be far from wrong. I understand without making any changes a GPR can be accepted into some PC/HC rendezvous. I think with the changes it might be accepted into some of the more strict events.
Some of these changes would add consider expense to the basic GPR kit. At that point it might be better to just go ahead and buy an actual Hawken rifle kit from one of the suppliers. But if you were to build the kit and then gradually make some effort to make it more authentically "real," then the cost added to the kit price might be easily justified. Build the "fantasy" rifle to start shooting and then gradually make it "real" as time and money allow.
Oh, and one final issue. The GPR stock is European walnut and not Amerkin black walnut. So, finishing the stock in a way that looks more like black walnut and less like European would be in order.
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you all so much for your knowledge and support.
I now feel better knowing this design isn't totally fantasy. Last night after a few shots of vodka I was just about to hit the "buy" button for this rifle on the Midway USA site. I figured I better hold off and learn a bit more first!
I now feel better knowing this design isn't totally fantasy. Last night after a few shots of vodka I was just about to hit the "buy" button for this rifle on the Midway USA site. I figured I better hold off and learn a bit more first!
gun broker had one this AM in kit form under $500.00. zero bids so maybe reposted. :idunno: I likley woulda bid but its a .50 and have that (NEED a .54)
kansas_volunteer
45 Cal.
Earl Burlin said:Thank you all so much for your knowledge and support.
I now feel better knowing this design isn't totally fantasy. Last night after a few shots of vodka I was just about to hit the "buy" button for this rifle on the Midway USA site. I figured I better hold off and learn a bit more first!
That had better have been some of that good Made in Kansas vodka.
I'd skip Gunbroker. I can't remember, but I found the best price at either Natchez or Midsouth shooters supply.
Eddie Southgate
36 Cal.
Graf & Son in Mexico Missouri has them as well. Should be in the same price range .
Eddie
Eddie
hanshi
Cannon
While I have never fired a Lyman GPR I have handled a couple. I like them; they are sturdy, accurate and, according to many owners, reliable. They do not even suggest the term "Hawken" rifle; they call it a "plains" rifle. It's much more authentic appearing than the "revered" T/Cs; and I use to have a T/C.
plains/trade rifles were built by a number of companies; so if a GPR doesn't look exactly like a Hawken, big deal!
I like them and would readily buy one, or a kit, in .54 flint, if I had the money....(Ahem!) and wife's permission. I consider the GPR to be a great buy.
plains/trade rifles were built by a number of companies; so if a GPR doesn't look exactly like a Hawken, big deal!
I like them and would readily buy one, or a kit, in .54 flint, if I had the money....(Ahem!) and wife's permission. I consider the GPR to be a great buy.
rdstrain49
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2010
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 3
I have a number of TCs and like them all. I have but one GPR. It's a 50 and aside from being a percussion gun would be my favorite. It's too long, too heavy, too much proud wood, too dark a stain, and will out group any TC I've ever shot or owned. I won't call the GPR ugly, but I will call austere, and yes it is by far my favorite percussion gun. Now for a flint 54, that just might be the perfect riflegun.
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
I have several Investarm-made rifles in flint & they all use the same lock. I've never had any problems with either lock, cock configuration or triggers that I couldn't tune up myself. The idea of needing to install "better" locks or triggers on any of the Investarm rifles indicates to me, either a lack of understanding on how they work, or how to tune them to work, or maybe a combination of that plus more money than mechanical skill; all are capable parts of an affordable and amazingly accurate commercial rifle.
You can clean out the packing grease from an out-of-the box Lyman rifle, load and fire it. This was especially true of their guns purchased several years ago. Todays' expectations are that you will need to to a little better wood fitting and finishing if you want a nicer fit gun. Nevertheless, even with my .54 flint Deerstalker, I can plink grapefruit out at 100 yards all day long.
If the lock or set trigger can't be made to work, contact Lyman. They can replace it for you.
You can clean out the packing grease from an out-of-the box Lyman rifle, load and fire it. This was especially true of their guns purchased several years ago. Todays' expectations are that you will need to to a little better wood fitting and finishing if you want a nicer fit gun. Nevertheless, even with my .54 flint Deerstalker, I can plink grapefruit out at 100 yards all day long.
If the lock or set trigger can't be made to work, contact Lyman. They can replace it for you.
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
hanshi said:
I think you nailed the obvious, that so many have disregarded. GPR is just that & not touted by Lyman/Investarms as being a Hawken. Back when, in the movie, Robert Redford pried out that "gee it's a real Hawken" from Hatchet Jack's frozen, dead hands, hands, everyone & their brother began branding half stock, brass furnished, patch-box equipped rifles as true Hawkens. That seems to have slopped over onto the GPR, and maybe even the Trade Rifles as well.
On occasion someone at the range will ask me if "That's a REAL Hawken?" (and sometimes they add 'in .50 caliber', so obviously they've seen the movie recently). I tell them that it's a Great Plains Rifle, and, no, it's not a 'mere.50 cal' (.54). When I ask them if they want to shoot it, there haven't been any refusals yet, and for most, it's the first flint they've ever fired.
Thanks for bringing this to light. Maybe it needs to be repeated more frequently :thumbsup:
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
Good points. Plus: Drop your bag of flints into the water & you just wipe them off and keep walking. Dunk percussion caps, and MAYBE they'll fire after they dry out :idunno:Eddie Southgate said:
Lets not fool ourselves. I think period rifles of the fur trade almost all had cap locks. Surviving examples bear this out.
The idea that you can make a flint out of a broken arrowhead is doubtful, since the geometry is all wrong. Plus, you'd have to find a lot of arrowheads to last for any period of time. White men in America were never flint knappers, even in the earlier days and most rifle flints were knapped in England. Or France. Even during the Revolution, flints were imported. And flint knapping is a skilled profession.
So I think a HC flinter would be a rare thing.
Natives probably had the knapping skill (out of a shard, not of an arrowhead) so I suspect period flint locks were probably made for the trade with natives who had fewer sources for caps than mountain men. A hundred caps would last a LONG time and take up little space and a cap lock is in every way superior as a weapon to a flint lock.
But if you want a flinter Plains rifle, ain't nothing that says you can't
The idea that you can make a flint out of a broken arrowhead is doubtful, since the geometry is all wrong. Plus, you'd have to find a lot of arrowheads to last for any period of time. White men in America were never flint knappers, even in the earlier days and most rifle flints were knapped in England. Or France. Even during the Revolution, flints were imported. And flint knapping is a skilled profession.
So I think a HC flinter would be a rare thing.
Natives probably had the knapping skill (out of a shard, not of an arrowhead) so I suspect period flint locks were probably made for the trade with natives who had fewer sources for caps than mountain men. A hundred caps would last a LONG time and take up little space and a cap lock is in every way superior as a weapon to a flint lock.
But if you want a flinter Plains rifle, ain't nothing that says you can't
cowboysteve
36 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2014
- Messages
- 79
- Reaction score
- 1
"So I think a HC flinter would be a rare thing" ...Whoa there, it's good to check the actual trade journals before jumping to conclusions. Actual ledgers to American Fur Co. show that the trappers preferred flint rifles until the mid-1830s (almost the end of the fur trade). An excellent book is "Supply and Demand - Ledgers of the Fur Trade", another is "The Hawken Rifle - It's Place in History". Both support the fact that flinters were very common during the fur trade.
I should have said the Mountain Man era, which peaked in about the 1840s.
The fur trade in general started during the late 17th Century, when flintlocks would be the only choice.
Most remaining Hawken rifles are caplocks.
The fur trade in general started during the late 17th Century, when flintlocks would be the only choice.
Most remaining Hawken rifles are caplocks.
54ball
62 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2004
- Messages
- 3,116
- Reaction score
- 1,024
Was it Astor who said the road to Hell should be paved with silk hats?
For those not in the know, silk hats pretty much killed the beaver trade.
Anyhow.....
The GPR is a fine rifle. It is modeled after percussion rifles made from the 1840s through the 1870s. As much as modern manufacturing will allow. Although a little lightweight it does favor the later Hawken percussion halfstocks.
You know how picky reenactment groups are.....In some Trans Mississippi "Western" units the percussion GPR is accepted as a sharp shooter.
For historical accuracy, the Great Plains Rifle is really more correct in percussion because it most favors rifles from circa 1850ish.
In flint they are fun and a great rifle to have and use. Historically accurate maybe not but what difference does it make if you do not reenact? As far as I know the flintlocks are accepted at Most Rondevous so...have fun with it.
For those not in the know, silk hats pretty much killed the beaver trade.
Anyhow.....
The GPR is a fine rifle. It is modeled after percussion rifles made from the 1840s through the 1870s. As much as modern manufacturing will allow. Although a little lightweight it does favor the later Hawken percussion halfstocks.
You know how picky reenactment groups are.....In some Trans Mississippi "Western" units the percussion GPR is accepted as a sharp shooter.
For historical accuracy, the Great Plains Rifle is really more correct in percussion because it most favors rifles from circa 1850ish.
In flint they are fun and a great rifle to have and use. Historically accurate maybe not but what difference does it make if you do not reenact? As far as I know the flintlocks are accepted at Most Rondevous so...have fun with it.
Last edited by a moderator:
