M1861 Springfield musket- which one ?
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Who knew this would become such an adventure! After two trips to the hardware store for a 1/4" ratchet ( went home with the wrong size the first time) I finally got the nipple off the rifle, this for the purpose of replacing it with a #11 size cone musket nipple in case I couldn't find musket caps. Anyway I took a pic of the three musket nipples, the original on the left and the #11 size nipples in the middle and on the right. The original musket nipple has a cavernous spark apeture, the other two like revolver nipples- is there any downside to the two smaller #11 spark apertures in terms of reliably setting off the charge of a musket ?
No
Jon,Who knew this would become such an adventure! After two trips to the hardware store for a 1/4" ratchet ( went home with the wrong size the first time) I finally got the nipple off the rifle, this for the purpose of replacing it with a #11 size cone musket nipple in case I couldn't find musket caps. Anyway I took a pic of the three musket nipples, the original on the left and the #11 size nipples in the middle and on the right. The original musket nipple has a cavernous spark apeture, the other two like revolver nipples- is there any downside to the two smaller #11 spark apertures in terms of reliably setting off the charge of a musket ?
I have heard of old nipples which had an "hourglass" shaped flash channel, i.e. large openings, top and bottom, with a narrowed waist or midsection. That may be what we see with the original musket nipple in your outstanding photograph. However, since you have an older musket, it may have been previously owned by a reenactor who only shot blanks. Blank-shooting reenactors habitually drill out the flash channel in the nipple to a much larger diameter. You can also buy reenactor nipples pre-drilled from some of the sutlers. The nipple actually fills with powder during loading (I have seen it). This enables those anemic CCI Reenactor caps to detonate the powder charge reliably. However, it also creates a potentially dangerous situation when shooting live rounds with bullets, as some of the pressure can blow back through the nipple. It can blow your hammer back to full cock, or possibly break something.
I would inspect that nipple carefully. If the flash channel is oversized like that all the way through, I would not use it for live fire.
John Zimmerman sells a terrific musket nipple wrench for the square shank nipples. It has a wood handle and a straight shank, like a nut driver, except it is purpose made for musket nipples. I have one that I got from him, and it works great. I'm sorry, but I don't know how to post a link with this infernal but handy touch-screen device. If you Google "John Zimmerman civil war gunsmith" you should be able to find his website.
Back to the original question... I have a Euroarms M1863 Richmond rifle musket, which is essentially an M1861 Springfield with some brass parts and different markings on the lock plate. It keyholes a lot of shots with the original barrel, and the lock needed professional intervention. I sent the gun to Lodgewood and their gunsmith did a good job on the lock and trigger. Euroarms went out of business 10-12 years ago and parts are hard to get. However, it is otherwise a nice gun, well fitted and finished. I will probably send the barrel to Mr. Hoyt and get it lined. I've had this gun for about ten years, and have gotten tired of fooling with it. The point being that you might find a used Euroarms musket out there. If it was owned by a knowledgeable shooter who tuned it up, it would potentially be a very nice gun. If it is "new in box," you may invest some time and treasure making into a shooter.
Regarding ArmiSport, I have a M1842 smoothbore which I bought from Blockade Runner. I paid extra to have it defarbed by Todd Watt, with whom Blockade Runner was working at the time. I don't think Todd made any modification of the lock or trigger... It was a straight defarb. This is one of my favorite guns, and a real pleasure to handle and shoot. I understand that many factory Italian muskets are somewhat overbuilt, in comparison to originals. Defarbing, done properly, not only makes the gun more historically correct, but it also slims it down and makes it nicer to handle, and consequently more fun to shoot.
My opinions, for what they are worth.
Respectfully,
Notchy Bob
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Notchy Bob, keyholing is almost always a sign of a mini that's under bore size by a fair amount. Poor lube and fouling build up can do it too.
Thank you, @hawkeye2 . That is good information. There were some other issues specific to this musket. in addition. Stand by for a PM.
Notchy Bob
The other thing that can cause that is hard lead alloy. Minies have to be pure lead sized to .001-2 under bore size.
Thanks, Dave. The bullets were from S&S, marketed as pure lead. I think there were some other factors at play.
I appreciate the comment, though. Thanks!
Notchy Bob
Steveoko922
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Pedersoli - better finish, consistent diameter, lighter weight
Everyone else is too heavy, weird bore diameters and soft lock parts.
Everyone else is too heavy, weird bore diameters and soft lock parts.
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Hawkeye2 and I go WAY back in competitive shooting of Civil War era guns at the North South Skirmish Association, which is the truly High End of the Competitive shooting of these guns in America and many of the best U.S. International Team Members "grew up" in competition and kept their competitive edge there.
Hawkeye2 was a shooting competitor and I did gunsmithing and trigger jobs on the guns. Further we both did re-enacting with these guns as well. So I believe we offer good experience all around on these guns.
I began doing trigger jobs on those guns at the Spring National Shoot in 1974 and made well over half of the Spring and Fall National Championships between then and 2005, when the Marine Corps did not have me on the other side of the continent or world. I had to give up going in 2005 because I had begun working guns full time after I retired from the Marine Corps in 1997 and I just could not make as much money there. So I could no longer afford to go past 2005, even though I LOVED going to the National Shoots and working the guns and thoroughly enjoyed most of the people there.
During those years, and to this day, the original 1861 and 1863 Springfield's (and other original Contract made Rifle Muskets) in good enough condition to shoot OR have had their barrels relined by Bobby Hoyt), were/are the very best guns to buy and shoot in competition. The fit and quality of the parts in the locks made it much easier to do a complex trigger job and lasted much longer than the repro guns.
The guns made by Armi San Paolo and sold by both EuroArms and Navy Arms during those years, were seen as "starting" guns for that competition and as Re-enacting guns. Re-enacting guns did not have as good fitting and as good quality lock parts as the originals, as we had to do more fitting/working/polishing on the parts and then had to re-harden and re-anneal the lock parts after doing the complex trigger jobs on them, that were not normally necessary on Original Gun Locks.
To perhaps make it a little more clear, if one mainly wanted a gun to compete with or what I called a "Shootin' Raffle," one got an Original. If one was mainly going to Re-enact (shoot blank rounds) with the gun and only do a little target shooting or hunting with live rounds, then the best option was for the Armi San Paolo Italian or Miroku made guns. There were even cheaper and poorer made Italian guns made then, but we told everyone to stay well clear of them for the most part.
OK, so sometime in the very late 1980's or early 1990's Armi Sport began offering Civil War guns. Some of their very first ones had problems with the barrels, though as Hawkeye2 mentioned, they eventually got that straightened out. However and as he mentioned the lock plates were thinner, the lock parts did not fit as well and were not as good quality as the Armi San Paolo guns of EuroArms/Navy Arms or the Miroku guns. So we classified those guns as "Re-enactor ONLY" as they were cheaper and shot the blank loads just fine, though the lock parts wore out sooner than the Armi San Paolo or Miroku guns. Almost NO one used them even as "Starting Guns" in competition for a lot of live firing, though.
I tried using lock parts from other makers to upgrade the Armi Sport locks, but even though it can be done, it just isn't worth the added cost of parts and gunsmithing. Though I have done complex trigger jobs on a few Armi Sport locks with their parts in the locks, they just can't be made to feel as good and don't last as long as other makers, so I was always very reluctant to do it.
Pedersoli had not yet begun making Civil War guns or shooters weren't using them at the Nationals when I was last there in 2005. However, the lock parts I've worked on in other Pedersoli Guns were at least as good as, if not better than the Armi San Paolo/EuroArms/Navy Arms guns. That would also make them much better than the Armi Sport guns, at least through 2005 when I last worked on them.
There is no doubt in my mind I would pay the extra money for the Pedersoli over the Armi Sport guns for use both as a "Starting Rifle" for competition and for Re-enacting.
Hope this may be of some value to those considering these guns along with what may/would be best for how they plan on using them.
Gus
Everything Artificer says regarding the Armi Sport is correct. Back in the 90s I was hooked up with Taylors and EOA and selling Armi Sport guns (didn't sell many). I set a friend up with a '61 Armi Sport when she joined our team. We cut it back to a 2 bander and tuned it for her. At 33" the barrel walls were almost thick enough to pass for a '55 rifle. The rifling and interior finish were excellent and it shoot very well. I went to work on the lock and it was a challenge. Eventually got a reasonable trigger and it was reliable but I was never satisfied with it. I have yet to come across a reproduction lock that begins to match the quality including interchangeability of the original Springfield and Harpers Ferry production. I do have an Italian lock that a friend rebuilt using some of the late Rich Cross's internals and it's probably the equal of an original but unfortunately Rich's parts are no longer available. I'm sticking with originals.
Yes we felt the imports were beginner's guns, good enough to get you going. If one got real serious about skirmishing then the barrel went to Hoyt for a reline and the lock got a major rework. Add glass bedding and a better front (and possibly rear) sight and it was possible to make an import gun shoot very well.
Yes we felt the imports were beginner's guns, good enough to get you going. If one got real serious about skirmishing then the barrel went to Hoyt for a reline and the lock got a major rework. Add glass bedding and a better front (and possibly rear) sight and it was possible to make an import gun shoot very well.
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For those who don't know, 2 Bander's or the period term of Rifle, was used to distinguish the shorter barrel than the full length Rifle Musket, but still the same bore size.
Hawkeye saying when they shortened the barrel and the diameter was almost big enough to pass for an 1855 Rifle, means the Armi Sport barrels are WAY thicker and heavier than the 3 band, full length Rifle Musket. Original 2 Band Rifle barrels had way thicker profiles than 3 Band barrels.
That heavier profile Armi Sport barrel may not be a bad thing for offhand shooting, though, as the standard 3 band barrel is more prone to wind moving the barrel in the Offhand position than 2 Band Rifle barrels. The heavier barrel would cut down on that, as long as the shooter can handle the extra weight of the barrel.
STILL, one is stuck with a low quality lock with the Armi Sport that is much more difficult and expensive to get a decent trigger pull, but almost never as good as the Pedersoli and especially not Original Locks.
If one is lucky enough to know some NSSA folks like Hawkeye2, they can help you improve the trigger pull, but only so much because of the lesser quality of parts. If one DOESN'T have NSSA folks like him, a really good trigger job is going to cost an arm and a leg.
Gus
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@hawkeye2 and @Artificer
with your guidance, where would be the best place to shop for a quality (original) rifle?
with your guidance, where would be the best place to shop for a quality (original) rifle?
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Hi hrt4me,
Believe it or not, the best place to find one is at the Spring or Fall National Shoots of the NSSA a little ways northwest of Winchester, VA at Fort Shenandoah, the home of the NSSA ranges. NSSA shooters have always traded or sold such guns to other shooters at a lower to much lower cost than one can usually find by going to Antique Gun Shows. You can come as a visitor to the National Matches and don't have to be a member, BTW. One can check the Want to Trade and Want to Sell notification board and also by checking Sutler's Row.
As far as the larger Gun Collecting Shows, the Ohio Gun Collector Shows can be a good place to find one and also the Annual Baltimore Antique Arms Show, though the Covid pandemic has messed up their schedule and you should check their websites for more info on them.
Welcome to the Ohio Gun Collectors Association Online (ogca.com)
and:
Baltimore Antique Arms Show (baltimoreshow.com)
Sometimes you can do better at smaller Antique Gun Shows closer to your area, depending on where you live.
For a "Shootin Raffle" as I like to say, you don't really want the most pristine rifle musket with all matching parts and in the best collector condition - as these cost the most money. Actually, one that has some non matching, but original parts with a decent lock and barrel is more of what you want. I've seen some with bad barrels but otherwise overall serviceable condition rifle muskets turned into really good shooters once Bobby Hoyt relined them.
Gus
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thank you, Gus
looks as if I will be flying to DCA again in the Fall...
looks as if I will be flying to DCA again in the Fall...
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Well, thank you for being kind, but in my case I'm glad (if not somewhat surprised) I've lived long enough to be an Old F@rt in the game. LOL!!
I remember when the original UK made Parker Hales came out and I can tell you from a gunsmith's outlook, they were/are an absolute dream to put a really good trigger pull on them because of the quality of the lock parts being as good as, if not slightly better than original "Interchangeable Pattern" Enfields. The barrels were all excellent quality as well. We used these parts to repair original Enfields, back in the day.
I bought a 2 Band PH Rifle because they shoot better in the Offhand than the longer 3 Band Rifle Muskets, just as the Originals did. I was fortunate I also did Confederate Marine reenacting, as that was the "correct" model for us. Generally for reenacting, though, it is better to buy the longer 3 Band Rifle Musket.
The quality of the original UK Parker Hale guns still has not been equaled by any other reproduction guns.
Gus
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If you have never been to one of the Spring or Fall National Matches at Fort Shenandoah and you have any interest in the Civil War period, you will be in for an unparalled treat. It's so great, it is almost sensory overload. Grin.
You are most welcome.
Gus
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