Main charge question

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

I'm trying to wrap my noggin around this powder charge conundrum. My thoughts are the powders back in the early 19th century were perhaps weaker than our modern manufactured powders?
I have never used commercially available Black Powder or sub in my sidelock.
Anyhow, I make my own powder and batch to batch I cannot tell a difference in performance. But when I ran my loads over a chronograph with 75 grains powder behind a .50 PRB in my TC "Hawken" I get 2100+ FPS average. If I can get that from my powder, I would think that those producing powder in the 1800s for a living would make a far superior product than I.

 

[billraby]

I have to wonder about the difference between modern powder and 19th century powder. The 19th century data that I have seen for the 4 bore rifles is that 16 dram powder charge would get a 2000 grain comical bullet to 1600+ feet per second for a bit over 12,000 ft/lbs muzzle energy. I have not seen if that was Fg or FFg. Don't know. How did they figure out how fast a bullet was going back then anyway? I am using the same powder charge of FFg Swiss with a 1700 grain round ball. How would that compare with the historical loads?

 

[rt2bowhunter]

I found 70 grs of FFFg shot best out of my Green Mountain round ball barrel. I have killed several deer with that load without any problems. When Black powder became impossible to find locally. I stuck with 70 gr's with the sub's. I tried a little more and less but it was kinda if it aint broke dont fix it kinda things.

I have always been a go shoot it and see for yourself kinda guy.

 

[Billy Boy]

I was just reading the new Hawkin book and I was blown away by the size of the charges that the author used, 160 gr 2f in 58 cal, 140 grains of 2f in .54 Cal. What are some of you guys using for hunting loads. Right now I’m using 80 and 85 grain 2f in my 50 and 54.

I burn 100gr 2f in the 62, 90 gr 2f in the 54, 80 gr 2f in the 50.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

I'm trying to wrap my noggin around this powder charge conundrum. My thoughts are the powders back in the early 19th century were perhaps weaker than our modern manufactured powders?
I have never used commercially available Black Powder or sub in my sidelock.
Anyhow, I make my own powder and batch to batch I cannot tell a difference in performance. But when I ran my loads over a chronograph with 75 grains powder behind a .50 PRB in my TC "Hawken" I get 2100+ FPS average. If I can get that from my powder, I would think that those producing powder in the 1800s for a living would make a far superior product than I.

C, what powder and granulation are you using? That velocity seems really high on that gun with projectile and load. I get around 1650 fps out of three TC Hawken’s I have with the same load. In order for me to get to 2100 plus I will be loading 110 grains of 3F GOEX. Swiss produces about 180 fps more but that is it. About 1830 with 75grains of 3F. What gives? Am I missing a secret trick??

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

We still have no idea as to what literature or author the OP was referring to and we almost to the 5th page!

 

[Ragged Edge]

Back about 25 years ago a buddy and I drove from PA to OK to hunt whitetails with our flintlocks. My buddy was a very good shot with anything in hand. He did, however, have an aversion to heavy recoil. Anyway, with his .50 cal. long gun he shot 70 grains of Goex 2-F with a PRB because it was accurate and comfortable. In a ground blind over a food plot in fading light he took an 80-yard shot at a big 10-point. The gun cracked and the deer dropped in it's tracks. 10 seconds later the deer was up and running. The deer went out of sight and darkness fell. There was some blood, but after a 3/4 mile trail it ran out and we had to call it quits at another guy's property line. The deer was not recovered ON THIS HUNT. The following year a deer was killed by a rifle hunter off the same stand. A flattened lead ball was found lodged in the cracked scapula? of the deer. The rack scored in the mid-150s. Would 80 grains have put a buck on my buddy's wall? Just some food for thought.

 

[Africa58double]

It’s difficult to address “How much is enough” or “Is that enough power”. The discussion could be altered to include other stories… yet each circumstance is different. A .45 with 60gr has killed deer effectively at 80yards.

I have a Tc Carbine Flintlock.50 and plan to load around 60-70gr of 2 or 3F with a PRB or a Lee REAL 250gr Bullet if Twist will allow. Most of my shots are under 70yards where I’ll shoot. Peep sight will help for accuracy. I also use 8-9 Bhn water quenched balls ,so penetration would be better. My point is that there is to many variables to account for. Not to impugn your post, just giving another perspective.

Back about 25 years ago a buddy and I drove from PA to OK to hunt whitetails with our flintlocks. My buddy was a very good shot with anything in hand. He did, however, have an aversion to heavy recoil. Anyway, with his .50 cal. long gun he shot 70 grains of Goex 2-F with a PRB because it was accurate and comfortable. In a ground blind over a food plot in fading light he took an 80-yard shot at a big 10-point. The gun cracked and the deer dropped in it's tracks. 10 seconds later the deer was up and running. The deer went out of sight and darkness fell. There was some blood, but after a 3/4 mile trail it ran out and we had to call it quits at another guy's property line. The deer was not recovered ON THIS HUNT. The following year a deer was killed by a rifle hunter off the same stand. A flattened lead ball was found lodged in the cracked scapula? of the deer. The rack scored in the mid-150s. Would 80 grains have put a buck on my buddy's wall? Just some food for thought.

 

[BP Addict]

Don't know much about Hawkin rifles , except they were made to be shot at longer ranges at game , and their weight made them better to carry on a horses back. One turn in 66" to 1 turn in 72" might have been used. The Larger powder charges can be fired from a slow twist barrel w/o stripping the rifling's grip on the patch ball. In the Eastern woods where shots on deer seldom go more than 125 yds. , .54 through .62. seldom need go more than 85 gr. , in .54. , to 90gr. for a .62. ,would be good.......oldwood

According to the late Joe Williams from the Gun Works in Oregon, (one of many conversations) the Hawken rifle twist was 1 turn in 48". The reason being was that was what their rifling machine produced.

With deep rifling, they would have been able to sustain larger powder charges.

Thanks!

Walt

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

C, what powder and granulation are you using? That velocity seems really high on that gun with projectile and load. I get around 1650 fps out of three TC Hawken’s I have with the same load. In order for me to get to 2100 plus I will be loading 110 grains of 3F GOEX. Swiss produces about 180 fps more but that is it. About 1830 with 75grains of 3F. What gives? Am I missing a secret trick??

I'm using my powder as produced, no screening after dried, so I guess it would be a combination of 2-3-4f . I use a potato ricer to compress my wet material and wet screen through 20 mesh.

 

[Ben Meyer]

In my two .50's, I use 80gr of 2F for everything.....hunting, target shooting, etc. Ive found that 70gr of 3F hits at just about the same place as 80gr of 3f, so that's my #2 go to load.

80gr of 2F kills good sized deer dead in the midwest. No need for more. 75yds is about as far as I'll shoot, more due to the my eyes+iron sights+dusk equation but I may expirament with bigger loads if I was shooting at bigger game at farther distances.

 

[Mogadishu Meanderer]

I'm using my powder as produced, no screening after dried, so I guess it would be a combination of 2-3-4f . I use a potato ricer to compress my wet material and wet screen through 20 mesh.

Woooooow!!! Awesome, well, you make your own!!!!!….. given how things are going on Eastern Europe, do you want to be friend??? LOL

 

[Rifleman1776]

Every Hawken rifle made by the brothers Jake and Sam were rifled on the only rifling bench in the shop. A 1 in 48" twist. As far as I know, only 1 in 48" twists have been measured. Deep grooves prevented any stripping of the patched ball.

Right on. I don't know where these slow twist notions come from.

 

[gunnyr]

Best accuracy for me is 90 gr of fff in my 54 cal Great Plaines and 65 gr of fff in my 50 cal CVA Hawkin both using
Pyrodex. Use 60 gr of fff in my flint 50 cal Trade Rifle real Black powder. For plinking I use the same charges, Practice
same as the way you hunt.
gunny

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

Woooooow!!! Awesome, well, you make your own!!!!!….. given how things are going on in Eastern Europe, do you want to be a friend??? LOL

I consider all my MZ brothers and sisters my friends and the whole shooting world for that matter. United we stand, divided we fall.
Still, about powders produced in the early 1800s the saltpeter needed to be made by a natural way, and sulphur had to be found and processed I imagine. And the consistency probably wasn't perfect.
Too bad they didn't have the interwebs, just think how fast technology would have advanced.

 

[gustrolland]

110 is a lot

Each gun is its own self. That said, you start with a lower charge and work upward till you find the load you like. Some guns will shoot about any load, but to my findings so far my guns like an upper mid-range load. A friend and fellow shooter both have several guns of the same caliber but require different loads.

 

[Cattywompuss]

I'll throw in my lot of conjecture since we are at it. Our forebears were not ballisticians. They weren't even all expert shots or born with a gun in their hands. I personally have always looked at American colonial(almost our entire history until Hawaii became a state under Eisenhower) history through a lens of how capable our ancestors were. But this is only a very small, very mythologized, part of reality. Shooting was not a scientific discipline until the mid 19th century. Prior to that it was more like a science experiment from some ingenuitive and fairly well informed amateurs.

All of that is not to denigrate them in any way. We aren't superior because we stand on the shoulders of their genius. But we should understand that some fellow loading his rifle with 140 grains of powder 150 years ago was not necessarily that Hawkeye Boone Billy Dixon we might imagine. He might have just been some guy who had the same level of gun skill as a wood-cutter who always spits on his hands before he sets to chopping because he saw his daddy do it. He may also have been a fine marksman while also being a failure at every other aspect of daily life. We assume our forebears did things for practical reasons because pragmatic skill is what we admire through our shared mythology. It is, though, an unfair inference about folk we admire without having ever known them in their daily habits or actual existence.

I say all that to say that what works now is what matters. We can draw wisdom from the past while also appreciating that in many things we do, in fact, know better. Taking penicillin comes immediately to mind, along with not putting too much of splodey splodey powder near our faces and setting it off.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

…and quite a few probably earned Darwin Awards.

 

[Zutt-man]

Each gun is its own self. That said, you start with a lower charge and work upward till you find the load you like. Some guns will shoot about any load, but to my findings so far my guns like an upper mid-range load. A friend and fellow shooter both have several guns of the same caliber but require different loads.

I found it amazing how 5 grains can affect a shot. When patterning my .58, 60 grains shot low, 65 shot right, 70 shot left, 75 shot low, and 80 was dead on.

 

[Hiwallhunter]

I thought proof loads were way more that 25% over hunting loads? Maybe I'm thinking modern gun proofing ????

I obtained this information from my manual supplied with the rifle and from the information gleaned from Sam Fadala’s excellent “bible” on various blackpowder firearms. He said on page 115 quote: “we feel we peaked out at 130 grains volume.” End quote. This is from The Gun Digest Black Powder Loading Manual , DBI Books ., Northfield, Illinois. The JBMR is proofed to 150 gr of fffg . I touched one off with 150 in it and do not feel that I need to do it again…Btw that gives 1970/1939 velocity/energy using a 225 gr ..530 round ball and a .015 ox yoke blue striped patch. Certainly quite adequate for moose!