Main charge question

[Grenadier1758]

Sam Fadala always like to push his loading recommendations towards the maximum and often way past the load needed for the purpose. He wrote a lot of books based on his experience and many of us looked to his insight as the ultimate truth. I have felt that his loading recommendations were about 25% above what I considered optimum for my uses. Glad his recommendations were good for you.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

I found it amazing how 5 grains can affect a shot. When patterning my .58, 60 grains shot low, 65 shot right, 70 shot left, 75 shot low, and 80 was dead on.

WOW...That's almost as if you are describing Barrel Harmonics...It's pretty relevant in Centerfire, but I've never had issues, well not many issues with it in BlackPowder.

 

[Hiwallhunter]

Sam Fadala always like to push his loading recommendations towards the maximum and often way past the load needed for the purpose. He wrote a lot of books based on his experience and many of us looked to his insight as the ultimate truth. I have felt that his loading recommendations were about 25% above what I considered optimum for my uses. Glad his recommendations were good for you.

Well, I have tried 90 (good),100 (Gooder), of two fg. I got more horse out of 120 3fg and call it quits there. I have to be careful with my loads and caps as they are on short supply here!

 

[RUDY MR]

C, what powder and granulation are you using? That velocity seems really high on that gun with projectile and load. I get around 1650 fps out of three TC Hawken’s I have with the same load. In order for me to get to 2100 plus I will be loading 110 grains of 3F GOEX. Swiss produces about 180 fps more but that is it. About 1830 with 75grains of 3F. What gives? Am I missing a secret trick??

Why you after 2100 fps out of a muzzleloader it's not a cartridge mag rifle

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

Why you after 2100 fps out of a muzzleloader it's not a cartridge mag rifle

I'm not after 2100. I only found out how my powder was performing after I chrono'd it. I was completely surprised as I'm not a recoil sensitive type.
My charge now is 50 grains and I'm quite happy with it. I batch 200 grams at a time and get over 50 charges at about $2.00 and some labor.

 

[BP Addict]

This has been an interesting thread, to say the least. Many opinions here.

I’m not sure what the quality of Black Powder was back then. Did they dilute it at Rendezvous like they did the liquor?

I do mostly target shooting. I’ve always liked the old adage of starting with the caliber and working up. From what I’ve seen, 32 is somewhere around 30 to 35 grains. My 40 likes 40 grains of 3F. My short-barreled 50s (28” & 32”) are fond of 60 grains. I went with 2F as the impact point was the same as 3F, but with less kick. My wife shoots 60 grains of 3F in her 39” Barreled Pedersoli long rifle. Years ago, I had an Allen Arms 53 caliber Santa Fe Hawken with a 1” x 32” barrel. I shot the same in that as I did my 54 T/C Hawken with Green Mountain barrel; 70 grains of 3F. Because there’s no rifling, I can get away with 60 grains of 2F in my 62 cal Trade Gun.

What little bit of deer hunting I’ve done was with a 28” barreled gun with a 1 in 32” twist, a 385 grain Great Plains Bullet, and 90 grains of 2F. Most of the research I did and opinions I received, said that’s what to use. I even thought about 90 for deer and 110 for elk, replicating the loads from the old Sharps.

The last little buck was about 35 yards away. I’m pretty sure it was a clear case of overkill! If I get a Muzzleloader tag this year, I plan on using a Flintlock with PBR. Rick Hacker in his Book, “The Muzzleloading Hunter”, states that he uses cap-locks with conicals because he wants reliability plus quick, clean kills and doesn’t like having to chase the critter down. Others here and on Facebook like hunting the way our Forefathers did. A guy I shoot with occasionally down south says his choice for hunting with PBR is 60 grains for deer and 80 for Elk using a 50 cal rifle.

I did an experiment a while back. Someone in the club said that because we usually shoot at targets 25 yards, we should load down. I fired three shots of 30, 40, 50, and 60 grains of 2F BP. They all hit the target but 60 grouped better.

I’m not sure what “new” Hawken book the OP is in reference to but I just received “The Hawken Rifle”, by Bob Woodfill from the NMLRA; Copywrite 2020.

I’ve often been told a rifle likes what it likes. A buddy of mine shoots 40 grains of 2F in his Ohio long rifle. He ran out of powder at a Match and borrowed some 2F. His shots were all in the same hole!

I’ve often wondered if one should shoot 3F in a short-barreled rifle and 2F in a long regardless of caliber. That way you could take advantage of the burn rates for each.

Thanks!

Walt

 

[tenngun]

I'm trying to wrap my noggin around this powder charge conundrum. My thoughts are the powders back in the early 19th century were perhaps weaker than our modern manufactured powders?
I have never used commercially available Black Powder or sub in my sidelock.
Anyhow, I make my own powder and batch to batch I cannot tell a difference in performance. But when I ran my loads over a chronograph with 75 grains powder behind a .50 PRB in my TC "Hawken" I get 2100+ FPS average. If I can get that from my powder, I would think that those producing powder in the 1800s for a living would make a far superior product than I.

Hoffman historic goes over making powder for ones own use. This is just plain material, and his product is close to GOEX.
His product has to be close to eighteenth century powder

 

[Big Rviers]

I was just reading the new Hawkin book and I was blown away by the size of the charges that the author used, 160 gr 2f in 58 cal, 140 grains of 2f in .54 Cal. What are some of you guys using for hunting loads. Right now I’m using 80 and 85 grain 2f in my 50 and 54.

My hunting load of 80 grains of FFFG and has done stellar service thru the years on everything from bear, Elk and deer.

 

[Caniborrowsomeammo]

Hoffman historic goes over making powder for ones own use. This is just plain material, and his product is close to GOEX.
His product has to be close to eighteenth century powder

Basically, that's how I make mine but without the unobtainable Orahcha(sp) red gum powder.
I use well seasoned Pacific willow for my charcoal and have a tree buddy that notifies me when he is working on willows so I can hoard, err stockpile. I live in wine country and am going to experiment with grapewood next.
I have Goex 2FF I have never opened, one day I will open it and compare it.

 

[Rodneystiffler]

The powder measures I mentioned in the beginning are recent tests the author did on his replica’s built to replicate certain old guns of historical figures. The book is the new book NMLRA is selling “Hawkins”.

 

[Rodneystiffler]

We still have no idea as to what literature or author the OP was referring to and we almost to the 5th page!

It’s a new book called “ Hawkins” that is solid on the NMLRA web site. I’m pretty new to this sport.

 

[Rodneystiffler]

I don’t know about anyone else but I’m getting a lot of info from this.

 

[Grenadier1758]

This is the book that was referenced.

The Hawken Rifle - Its Evolution from 1822-1870 — The NMLRA

 

[Rodneystiffler]

I believe so, not in front of me right now.

 

[BP Addict]

I’m currently reading the same book. According to the author Bob Woodfill, General William Ashley’s “Super Hawken” rifle was based on information Sam gave in a newspaper interview in 1882. He claimed the barrel was “three and a half feet”. The rifle was made in the winter of 1822 and 23 and was most likely a full stock. Many believe that because Sam had spent time working with James Lankenan who was from Virginia, this led many to believe that Ashley’s Hawken would have been patterned after a Southern Mountain Rifle with iron furniture.

There was an attempt to build a replica back in the 1970s, according to Baird. They made their barrel 37.5” instead of 42” with a thickness of 1.1875” at the breech and 1.0625” at the muzzle. The caliber was 69 as that was the common size in military arms at the time of Ashley’s rifle. It weighed 11.75 pounds. Ashley was having problems with the natives pestering his Keelboats so he wanted something that could hit a human target at 200 yards. That might explain why they fired it with 160 grains of GOEX. Needless to say, the recoil might have been too much to handle, even with that weight!

The author also made his version of the famed rifle. He kept the octagonal barrel at 42”. It was tapered from 1 1/8” at the breech to 1” at the muzzle. The caliber was 69. He used 80-90 grains of 2F or 3F powder with a 0.680 RB and 0.015” patch.

My answer would be that they would use higher power charges for distance with a Patched Round Ball if needed.

Thanks!

Walt

 

[Ben Meyer]

160gr kicks, but is manageable for big guys like me. Before getting into sidelocks, I hunted with an scoped inline(still have it, it collects dust). That was before Indiana allowed centerline rifles for deer Firearms season. I shot a 250gr sabot with 150gr of Pyrodex, and that gun doesn't weigh anywhere near 12lbs. It's no worse than a 12ga slug gun really.

 

[Dphar1950]

I was just reading the new Hawkin book and I was blown away by the size of the charges that the author used, 160 gr 2f in 58 cal, 140 grains of 2f in .54 Cal. What are some of you guys using for hunting loads. Right now I’m using 80 and 85 grain 2f in my 50 and 54.

Before Swiss 90 was my standard for a 50, 100 for 54 both FFF. With Swiss its a little less. There is a point of diminishing returns. My 15 bore 30” barreled FL with a Nock breech reached this at 140 gr of FF Swiss. But this gives 1600 fps with a .662 ball, great accuracy and that is all that is needed for anything in NA with this ball size. Smaller bores need more powder in relation to ball weight. 140 behind a 437 gr ball is about 30% of ball weight. There are a lot of people overloading rifles. I doubt very much someone days or weeks from resupply would use more powder than needed. For 45 to 54 1/2 ball weight is all that is needed for a flat trajectory and accuracy.

 

[olskool]

in my 54 SMR i use 75gr. of 2F goex OE, that is all that is required for excellent accuracy and dead deer. this 3 shot

tar

get was shot off hand and the deer at 93 paces with that load,,,,,,,,,,,,,