Making/hardening a frizzen?

[TNHillbilly]

Made a lock, no spark. Think I may need to make a heavier main spring. When I finished the frizzen (made from angle iron), I went along the back with a dremel sanding disc to give it some minor surface roughness. Hardened it with something called 'Quick Hard' I got at the welding shop-looks like Kasenite. But, no sparky! Used a flint out one of my old CVA flinter pistol (Must add these are the limits of my flint experience and they never fail!) I think I read where the old timers welded a piece of old file on the back....... So what's the proper procedure?

 

[mazo kid]

I'm not sure an angle iron frizzen will do it as it is an unknown steel. You may have to get the frizzen really hot and treat it several times to make it work,if it works at all.You don't need roughness on the face of the frizzen to make sparks.

 

[Roy]

If you are going to case harden the steel you need to heat it up bright red and keep it that way (2 to 3 minutes) while keeping the face covered with kasinite then quench. This will just case harden the face of the frizzen and will eventually wear through. Or you can re-face or re-sole the frizzen with tool steel...

 

[J.D.]

I'm a curious person and am always interested in seeing photos of peoples handiwork, especially home made locks. So, how about a few photos?

I know of a very, very good gunnmaker who sometimes makes frizzens of angle iron, so yes, it is feasible. IMHO, you will have to pack harden that frizzen, or shoe it like Roy said, however, I'm not a big fan of Kasnit or similar products. They don't harden deep enough for my tastes.

And about that main spring? What is it made of? how thick and wide is it? How was it hardened and tempered?

While I have not made a lock, I have researched what makes a lock work and applied that to rebuilding and repairing them, so I may be able to help getting yours to work properly.

There are several very good locksmiths that post here that may help too, but we gotta see the lock to diagnose potential problems that you may not be aware of.

good luck,
J.D.

 

[flaming canvas]

I'm not sure an angle iron frizzen will do it as it is an unknown steel. You may have to get the frizzen really hot and treat it several times to make it work,if it works at all.You don't need roughness on the face of the frizzen to make sparks.

Angle iron is probably a mild steel with a low carbon content. Not the best for making stuff to spark.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Well, let's see... I basically hardened just as was suggested. The main spring is heavy spring stock from Dixie..but, think I got it too narrow. Tomorrow, I'll make another MS and try that. I'm thinking the frizzen's hard enough I ought to get a few sparks out of it, so MS next before messing any more with the frizzen. Funny the MS's on my CVA don't seem that stout but get a spark every time.

 

[Zonie]

"...Hardened it with something called 'Quick Hard' I got at the welding shop-looks like Kasenite..."


The angle iron you used is a low carbon steel so you did the right thing by trying to case harden it.

I haven't used Quick Hard but if it is like Kasenite you need to do as the others have suggested and keep the steel bright red/orange hot for several minutes.
The longer the better. If the case hardening material seems to be disappearing, recoat the red hot piece and keep the heat on it.

Because the steel is a low carbon type, oil hardening will not work. You must water quench the part from the bright red/orange heat.
After quenching, try to file the surface.
If you did everything right, a flat file will not cut into the surface. It will just slide across it.

If you brought me the part right now, the first thing I would do is to test it with a flat file.
As I said, if the file won't make a mark, the surface is hard enough to work so the problem must be in the geometry of the flint/frizzen.
If the angle between these isn't right, the frizzen won't spark. It will just get knocked out of the way by the flint.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Did the file trick...just slides across, so let's discuss angle geometry. Or, should I say you discuss! Seems like a valid part of the equation, actually wondered about it myself. My solution was: bend frizzen angle in arc like manner, checked flint hits frizzen, pull trigger, hope make sparky bangy sound!

 

[TNHillbilly]

Oh yea, my hardening process was exactly as you described, including water quenching.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Don't know if you can tell anything of the geometry from the pic

 

[bioprof]

This might seem like a silly question, but is your flint sharp? I know some locks like a very sharp flint. If you haven't all ready, try a new flint with a sharp edge. It might make a difference.

 

[J.D.]

Not bad at all. I assume you did the engraving too. Very nice.

As for the mainspring, since it is mounted in a stock, set the butt of the stock on a scale and cock the lock. Be aware of the"weight" recorded as the lock is cocked. Ten pounds of force to cock the lock is about right.

I suspect that the foot of your frizzen is too close to the pan. Notice the distance of the pivot point from the pan in the photos on the web pages below.

Try these web pages.
http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/tuning.htm
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/antique_gun_locks.htm

Notice the radius in the frizzen of the Durrs Egg lock with the brass plate. Also notice how the bottom jaw of the cock points to the center of the pan on the shotgun lock below the Durrs Egg.

These two locks are probably two of the best locks you will ever see. Study them closely and you will learn lots about good lock geometry.

There is also a page in German with drawings of arcs of radius to illustrate the proper relationships of the various parts, but I couldn't find it.

Just for the sake of curiosity, if this is your first flintlock, where did you learn to make one?

Good luck,
J.D.

 

[bingo1952]

Is your frizzen face browned or blued? Frizzen faces spark better if left unfinished i.e.(no oxidizing compounds of any sort).

 

[paulvallandigham]

The frizzen should be 10 degrees to the rear of vertical, or 80 degrees. Your frizzen is bent in the middle, rather than beginning just above the bottom of the frizzen. Its way too straight( vertical) for the bottom half to give you good sparks, or to pop open properly to let the sparks you do get be thrown down into the pan. Use an existing commercial lock to measure the angles with a protractor.

The point of contact of the front edge of the flint( new) should be between 60 and 66% above the bottom of the frizzen, in order to get good sparking. Most cocks are not angled forward enough to produce this angle, and have to be heated, and bent downward to get this angle correct. The new T/C lock has the hammer at the correct angle to the frizzen, as an example. The old flintlock was not made at the correct angle.

In using kasenite, bring the heat up to orange white, and sprinkle the casenite liberally on the face of the frizzen. Let it boil and bubble on the steel, and don't be afraid of adding more. Try to hold it there in the heat for at least 5 minutes.

Then, drop the frizzen immediately into a can of cold water held as close to the bottom of the frizzen when you remove the heat, as possible, so there is no time for the frizzen to air cool beofre hitting the water. The water will make the scale from the heating pop off the face of the frizzen. After you do your file test, you need to put the frizzen into your oven at 350 degrees for an hour, and let it cool slowly to room temperature. tap it with a piece of hard steel, like the shank of a screwdriver,and listen to the sound produced. The hardened frizzen, fresh out of the water quench, will give you a slight ring( "ting"). After its been tempered in the oven, it should give you a duller sound("tick").

Polish the face of the frizzen with emery cloth to remove any remaining scale, clear the pivot hole of any burrs, or debris, oil and replace it in your lock to try. If it doesn't spark, it because you did not get it HOT enough during the hardening and " case hardening " process. Heat it up again, only turn down the lights so you can really see the colors better, and get it to the orange/white hot color stage, before putting casenite on it again. Put the torch on the front side of the frizzen, which should be on the bottom when the frizzen is held in a bench vise by the tab with the pivot hole in it. The face of the frizzen should be facing up. Since heat rises, the hottest part of the frizzen will be the face, where you sprinkle the casenite, and watch it boil and bubble.

I prefer to have a second person on hand to help hold the torch in place, and/or hold the can or bucket of water up as close as possible to the frizzen when I release the jaws of the vice to let it fall into the water to quench. I have done this all by myself, but it gets to be a bit of a chinese fire drill without the extra hands. :rotf: :thumbsup:

 

[spugnoid]

Mild steel itself does not harden whether quenched in oil or water. However, there is a blacksmith's quench recipe floating around on the net that contains salt? and detergent I believe.

The claims behind this stuff is that it WILL harden mild steel. Slightly. You may want to have a snoop for this recipe. I have yet to try it so I can't vouch for results.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Wow! Thanks, guys for the data! It's especially helpful to have quantitative info to work from. Generally I think when someone does this kind of work routinely, you develop a 'sixth sense' as to what works and what doesn't. To say 10 lbs of force to cock is easier to understand than 'a strong pressure'..... 80 degrees: even I can meaure! And, Paul, you're right about extra hands. Indeed, trying to hold a torch and hammer in one hand ain't easy! BTW, the very first time I've ever heard of the drawing process on the frizzen. This is same kind of problem I've been having on the wheellock I've been building-maybe that's the problem, too. I'm willing to bet some other guys have learned something here too. Thanks, again Gents, I'll report back after I do some work.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Couple of comments to other responses. I do the 'chiselling' with old files ground down. I can't seem to get the feel for hand engravers. I loosely copied this from an old Spanish lock-just like the way the old timers could carve steel. I didn't brown the frizzen, just bare steel. And, I used a super saturated salt water solution to quench (no detergent though). Speaking of steel, though did the old guys have steel as we are used to, or did they use what iron they had. I read somewhere the old Damascus barrels were made from old horseshoes. They claimed the 'cold forging' from the constant beating of the shoes against cobblestone made better steel...truth, or urban legend..don't know.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Striking soft steel with a hammer repeatedly compresses the strands of iron together to harden it somewhat, but it doesn't put carbon into iron that is not already there. Because of the way Damascus steel is made, it tended to have more carbon in it, that some others. Mixing it with iron was a way of making a soft steel.

Today, it just makes more sense to acquire the correct steel alloy to use, rather than messing around with the wrong stuff. You have choices today they did not have back then. Be well assured that if they had such a choice, they would choose it in a New York Second! Men worked very hard from sun up to sun down for as little as $1.00 a day back then, and if they could find a better way to make a product, they used it.

 

[LRB]

Real steel was a very expensive commodity before the mid 19th c. Iron was pretty much just iron with little, to virtually no carbon. Iron, and steel making in America was against British law, as long as they were in power. This was because they imported it into the Americas, and wanted no competition. Even the use of it was regulated. Smiths could not legally make many different farm implements, or many other tools of steel. Used up horse shoes would have been very common, and easy to get, but I don't know about their use in barrels. Cold forgeing by horse hooves would do nothing for the quality of the iron, but the original forgeing of the shoes would. Modern steel gains no rewards by forgeing. It is basically forged to it's maximum quality as it is formed and hot rolled into bars, and lengths, but iron produced in the 18th c. had many impurities, and inclusions which could be removed, or diminished by forgeing the iron billets that were made by very primitive methods. Then, if re-used for another item, they most often would be getting yet another forgeing, and further refining of the iron.
Brine will cool steel faster than plain water, as the salt water lessens the vapor jacket that instantly forms around the red hot steel when quenched. A common rule of thumb amount of salt, is enough that the brine will float an egg.

 

[J.D.]

Iron, and steel making in America was against British law, as long as they were in power. This was because they imported it into the Americas, and wanted no competition. Even the use of it was regulated. Smiths could not legally make many different farm implements, or many other tools of steel.

Just for the record. The idea that iron production was "against the rules" was dead wrong! The first iron furnace in Virginia was built in 1619 (and destroyed by the Indians in 1622). Virginia Maryland and PA were world leaders in iron production before the Revolution. Iron was a major export from Virginia starting in 1607-8 when Capt. Christopher Newport took a boat load, literally, of iron ore back to England for testing.

The British "Iron Act of 1750" did prohibit the erection of additional rolling and slitting mills because the Brits wanted the iron shipped to England for processing rather than being turned in to finished materials here. The law was largely ignored but some historians content it was the seed that 26 years later lead to revolution.

Just wanted to keep the record straight. :wink:

That said, wrought iron was the common material that most all implements were made of including gunlocks. The process of case hardening by packing parts in a sealed container containing charcoal and "baking" them for several hours produced a deep, hard surface hardening that was sufficient for most applications.

Heating wrought iron for a sufficient length of time for carbon to migrate completely through a piece of steel produced blister steel. So called because of scale that appeared as blisters on the surface of the steel.

IMHO, the old pack hardening technique takes longer than modern case hardening, but the old technique produces a much deeper case, approaching .032" deep when a part is heated in a carbon rich environment at 1600 degrees for three hours.

Kasnit and similar products only produce a case about .005-.008" thick case that IMHO, will wear through in a relatively short time.
J.D.