Making/hardening a frizzen?

[TNHillbilly]

Thanks for the commentary! Don't know where else you find a place to discuss history, metal working, metallurgy, woodworking, art work..... Wonder sometimes how you guys acquired so much knowledge. I'm just getting back into the ML aspect of 'Guns' after many years and sure was glad to find this place! A lot of the metal I've used was scrap from one place or another. Only recently have I found a machine shop that I can get small quantities of the 'good' stuff-a sympathetic shop foreman! This frizzen and lock plate were made in a small(tiny!) vice clamped on the back bumper of my motorhome while stationed at one of the Army's 'Garden Spot' posts I was assigned to. The metal came from a scrap heap-probably a remnant of some WW I metal thingy. Come to think of it, maybe horse hooves beat this lock plate!

 

[mckutzy]

i beleve i had heard from a smith that said if u can float an egg u have enough salt for ur quench, im not too sure of this method but it might warrent a try,

 

[rickjf]

To test if it if mild steel. Take a piece of the same steel heat to bright cherry red quench in water. If it is steel it will be too hard to file and brittle. It should spark with a piece of flint. If not go for case hardening. If it is hard enough to spark then quench and temper your frizzen. Most angle iron is low carbon. Some relatively high carbon steel will not provide a good spark such as oilfield sucker rod makes good chisels but poor flint stickers. The quenching fluid depends on boiling temperature. Water really quenches but because of "gas pressure" steam bubbles in the fluid causes uneven cooling leading to stress fractures. Oil is best. Try olive oil. Salt water has a highter boiling point but still has the steam problem. I have tried radiator fluid with some success but is it posionus to animals. Try a good high carbon file or a piece of spring steel. I made a linkage for the loading lever of Remington revolver out a file I tempered it but it still was to brittle for that. I will use a piece of sucker rod or coil spring for next try. It is best to test the steel before you put a lot of time in it. Anealing steel means heating to really bright cherry red "looks orange to me" and bury in very dry sand or ashes to cool very slowly. High carbon steel can be worked as it will be as soft as it can be made but it will have to be rehardened and tempered.

 

[spugnoid]

Another good option may be to obtain some quality steel, make your frizzen and then find a shop that heat treats knife blades. See if they will throw it in the oven with their next batch, as long as you know what type of steel you have they can pair it with a knife steel with a similar heat treat temperature.

Just a thought.

I have the shell of a heat treat oven but have been too cheap to buy the firebrick and heating element as of yet. One of these days...

 

[J.D.]

Heat treating knife blades and frizzens is like comparing apples and oranges. Frizzens need to be tempered at a lower temp than knives commonly are.

Many frizzens are made of mild steel that need case hardening. Can't do that by throwing it in with knives either.

Bill,
How far are you from Lexington KY? If you wanna see the work of some of the best gunbuilders in the country, go to the CLA show in August.

Some of these guys build their own locks, so they can give you some pointers.

http://www.longrifle.ws/events/

Temporary memberships available at the door for $10. That price includes the whole family for the two days of the show.

There are also quite a few original rifles to drool over too. If you wanna build good longrifles, ya gotta study originals or your just gonna be whistling in the wind.

 

[spugnoid]

It would depend on the type of steel the frizzen is made from. Tempering and heat treating are two different things. A lot of steel only needs 400 degrees for heat treating.

 

[J.D.]

Tempering and heat treating are two different things. A lot of steel only needs 400 degrees for heat treating.

Huh, tempering is only one aspect of heat treating.

Heat treating can entail normalizing, spheroidizing, annealing, hardening, and tempering, which are all different, but related processes.

Case hardening is another completely different aspect of heat treating.

Heat treatment also depends on the type of steel involved and the application of the part to be heat treated. A knife blade made of 1095, for example, is treated differently than a frizzen made of 1095.

A frizzen tempered to the same temperature as a knife made of the same steel would be waaayyy too soft. And a knife tempered the same as a frizzen made of the same steel would be so brittle it would chip badly on the edge.

A mainspring made of 1095 must be treated altogether differently than either a knife or a frizzen made of the same steel.

1095 steel is a water hardening steel, BTW, but quenching a frizzen made of 1095 in water will very often result in a myriad of hairline cracks that will cause the frizzen to break in short order.

There are a LOT of subtleties to heat treating that anyone interested in making steel parts needs to know.

Good luck,
J.D.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Still working, but did finally get some sparks today! I have not 'oven baked' the frizzen yet. I did two things that helped, I think. First, I took some of the bend out of the frizzen. Next, I heated the top of the cock and bent it downward a bit. That brings up the business of the hardening tempering. If I harden the surface with Kasenite-or whatever carbon rich stuff- and then bake it at 350 degrees, what do I wind up with? Hard coated, soft center. Also, I thought the whold idea here is shearing off small bits of molten steel. Seems counter-intuitive to harden something you're try to shear off?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Generally, the harder the steel, the hotter the sparks. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but that is what works. The flint is harder.

 

[Bill Bounds]

Hey TN:
I've made about a half dozen frizzens out of mild steel, cold rolled, hot rolled scrap. I pile on the Kasenit with the frizzen as hot as I can get it. It'll look like a breaded shrimp. Lookin in my tiny forge I like to see the kasenit molten and bubbly on the frizzen with no dark spots. I heat it at the highest temp I can keep (probally around 1600 degrees) for at least 5 min. Every minute you keep the heat on leaves you with tiny amount more hardened steel.Cold water quinch. I've never seen the reason for tempering case hardened steel, it's still soft in the center no matter what you do. I've shot thousands of shots with the first one I made, no lack of spark noticed.
The siler locks will always seem to spark better, good steel, exact hardening, great geometry.
It's a dumb question but here goes. Do you clean off your frizzen with brake cleaner or some kind of solvent that leaves no oil behind?
You changed the geometry, did you have flints destroyed after a few shots before? Are they lasting more shots now? Your flint should hit the frizzen in a shearing arc.but it should catch and not slide down the face but not hit so straight on that the flint explodes every shot.Sometimes on a homemade frizzen I need to drop the hammer a few hundred times to get to where I got better sparks.during that time you can look around on the lock and see where things are rubbing or sticking, polishing them alittle for smoother action.You can see if the frizzen is wearing poorly on the frizzen spring and so on.



Bill

 

[Zonie]

TN Hills: If you bake your frizzen at 350 degrees F you will end up with a slightly softer surface.
It will still be harder than a lathe cutting bit which is tempered at around 450 degrees F.

IMO, because your frizzen is a case hardened part that requires a very hard, high carbon surface to make good sparks, and because the part already has a soft core because it is a low carbon steel no tempering should be required or desired.

Had you made your frizzen out of a thru hardened steels like 1095, O1, A1, A2 etc it would be very important to temper the part so that some of the brittleness is removed but most of the hardness is maintained.
If this is not done, a part made from these steels will shatter when it is struck or bent.

Your case hardened frizzen does not need to be tempered.

As for the cock, did you bend it so that the flat of the lower jaw is pointed right at the middle of the pan when it is in the uncocked position?
That seems to be the general position that most lockmakers use.

 

[TNHillbilly]

Looking at it, it appears to me to be pointing a bit below the mid point. I fooled with both that and the wheellock I built, both held in my vice. Was able to get a spark from both but no ignition. I only had a smallish pistol flint to try which only hits about 1/2 the width of the frizzen. I have some larger but will have to make a longer cock screw to hold them. I was using old FFFg in the pans, though it works fine in both my CVA flint pistols.

 

[J.D.]

Even case hardened parts need to be tempered some. A too hard frizzen won't strike as many sparks as one that is tempered at 350 degrees. Too hard means that the flint can't strike off as many minute particles of steel. A slightly tempered frizzen will allow more particles of steel to be struck.

Also, internal parts like tumblers and sears that are case hardened need to be tempered to remove any brittleness in thin areas like the sear nose or the half cock notch of the tumbler.

There is a BIG difference in heat treating a frizzen from Chambers, L&R, or Davis and one imported from off shore. Parts of American made locks are made of good alloy steel that does not require case hardening, but off shore production guns are made of cheap steel that requires a good case hardening.

TN Hills guy,
The flint should be pointing at the center of the pan when the cock is full down. Ideally the face of the frizzen should have a 10 degree cant to the rear of the lock and a smooth radius that allows the flint to scrape bits of steel off of the face of the frizzen.

The top of the frizzen may need to be bent slightly toward the front of the lock to clear the top jaw or the jaw screw.

The frizzen should kick open at about 30 degrees, just about the time the flint clears the bottom of the frizzen.

In addition, Ideally, the flint and the bottom of the pan cover should be in an almost straight line just as the flint clears the pan cover.

If you want to see some really nice guns from someone who makes many of his own locks, check out this page. Notice the angles and radii on the frizzens.
http://www.jwh-flintlocks.net/

 

[TNHillbilly]

Pooof! And a cloud of smoke! About jumped 3' off the shop floor. Well, I treated my frizzen with a 1 hour bake in the wife's oven at 350 degrees. Took it down to the shop and chucked 'er in the vice. Poured a small amount of powder (FFFg-maybe not the best primer, but all I have right now) and tripped the sear. What's that a spark! No ignition, Hhhmmm. Filled up the pan to the top, what the heck! Remember, I had tweaked (flattened) the frizzen, and bent the cock with heat at the neck. Little tiny flint, wrapped in a piece of sandpaper(no lead, Paul). Ever so slender a mainspring, no brawny, truck spring for me! Trip the sear, Poof! Thanks, Gents!

 

[J.D.]

Outstanding. These flint locks are fun to work on, and even more fun to build. And considering that this is your first ever flintlock, making your own is quite an accomplishment. You should be proud.

You obviously have considerable talent for these things, so when you attend the Contemporary Longrifle Association show in Lexington KY the middle of August you will have the opportunity to look at, drool over, and study many originals and very well done contemporary longrifles.

With a little study and education in the find art of longrifle building, someone with your level of talent can very quickly become a very good builder.

Look me up when you get to the CLA show. I will be the short,fat, foureyed, baldheaded old man wearing an OD green tee shirt with ALR and a wood chisel prominently displayed on the front.

And bring that lock to show off. There are always a coupla accomplished lockmakers there for you to pick their brains. Chuck Heistand from PA forges many of his locks, and he is great guy to talk to.

Good luck,
J.D.