max range?

[jerem0621]

I'm just wondering if anybody has shoot a .50 cal prb at a target over 100 yards? The reason I ask is because during this past hunting season I had a big doe broadside to me at about 130 yards. I would like to know if I do my part will the PRB still be stable enough to reach 125-150 yards? Please remember that I'm still pretty new to traditional muzzleloading so right now my effective range is only 50-70 yards but that has more to do with me than it does with the ml. I hunt a large field so a shot that is over 100 yards is very possible. I plan on changing to 3f Goex and practicing every chance I get at at between 50-100 yards.

right now here is my set up

.490 round ball
.15 patch
26 inch barrel
80 grain pyrodex
1:48 inch twist
cci magnum #11 caps
T/C New Englander

Thanks a bunch!


Jerem0621

 

[Rebel]

The .50 will still do the job at that range if the ball is put in the RIGHT spot, but i would suggest looking for another barrel or gun in .54 cal for the long shots. You still need the proper shot placement but the .54 gives ya an edge in range.

 

[bkisel]

Looking forward to reading the replies to your post.

I'm brand new to BP shooting but am experienced hunting deer with both bow (compound and traditional) and handgun. Based on the BP/RB ballistcs I've seen I personally would not feel comfortable attempting to take a deer beyond ~100 yards with your setup. The gun I bought several weeks ago is also .50 caliber but I'm working on shooting a 240 grain 1/2 conical in front of ~100 grains of powder. The ballistic chart that came with these conicals (Hornady PA conical[url] http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=730932)[/url] shows something like ~750 ft/lbs @ 100 yards with 100 grains of Pyradex (sp) powder (this is approx. correct, just to lazy to go down to the basement and get the exact stats).

So, my opinion (and just my OPINION), go with a conical in front of ~ 100 grains of powder or go with a .54 caliber PRB if you must reach out beyond 100 yards.

 

[jerem0621]

I've got a .54 cal New Englander on it's way now. So I'll try to work up some loads for it. I hunt exclusively with my Muzzleloaders so I would like to get 100-150 yards just in case I get another shot like I did before.

Jerem0621

 

[Bountyhunter]

For what it is worth, I have made quite a few kills over 100 yards with my traditional muzzle loading rifle. I shoot a .53 Hawken with 36" barrel. It is loaded with patched .520 balls over 120 grains of powder. It certainly gets the job done. Your task is going to be getting a killing sized group at say 125 yards. You are not likely to get that on the killin field, you need to work that up before the hunt. That little short barreled new englander may not develop the poop to send that ball out that far and hold a good group.

 

[bob308]

i suggest reading the muzzloading cap lock rifle by ned roberts, and the muzzloading rifle then and now by walter cline. in both books they talk about matches at 20 and 40 rods{ 110 - 220 yds} with rifles from .40 to .45 cal some .50's but nothing bigger. also of hunting bear with a .40 cal rifle.

it makes me wonder has the powder gotten weaker or the calibers some how lost their power?

 

[Rebel]

I have a .54 New Englander and also have the .12 ga barrel for it. The .54 does real good with 75 grs Pyrodex P, a #40 Drill cloth patch lubed with Crisco, . 530 home cast rd ball, and CCI mgnum #11 caps.

 

[bkisel]

Yep, .53 (.54?) over 120 grains of powder seems like it would do the job. I was replying to Rebel's post about .50 caliber PRB out past 100 yards. But again I'm not talking from BP shooting experience so I'm willing to read and learn. With hindsight and just what I've learned from the few days I've been reading and posting on this site, I believe I would have been better served with a .54 caliber rifle and just stuck to PRB. Unless I learn otherwise my intent is to deer hunt with my .50 caliber using the 1/2 conical over ~100 grains of powder.

Thanks for sharing your experiance. Maybe I need to spend more time reading the Hunting BB here on this site

Take care ...

 

[bkisel]

Just talking about what I would feel comfortable hunting with - it's just a judgement call on my part. A friends Lab died from a .177 pellet shot from an air rifle and many years ago saw an anti-hunting bit where it took something like 7-10 hits from a high power rifle (don't remember the statistics) to put a Whitetail buck down. This being said I respect your opinion.

Take care ...

Ps. Way past my bed time ao will research the article you mention tomorrow.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

in both books they talk about matches at 20 and 40 rods{ 110 - 220 yds} with rifles from .40 to .45 cal some .50's but nothing bigger. also of hunting bear with a .40 cal rifle.

it makes me wonder has the powder gotten weaker or the calibers some how lost their power?

From reading different sources and talking to some very old muzzleloading shooters; I understand that there were many varieties of black powder, and most were much cleaner and more powerful (energy or velocity per grain), than the "manure" we are forced to suffer with.

Having just one muzzleloading gun, and with more experience shooting a smaller caliber, it makes sense that targets were at longer range and game hunted was larger than we might expect.

Regards,
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Trench]

I ran some numbers for you on my roundball calculator. This assumes you're using a charge sufficient enough for 1800 fps at the muzzle and sighted in at 75 yds.

Here's the numbers at:
120 yds:
Velocity: 936 FPS Energy: 347 FPE Drop: -8.5 in

160 yds
Velocity: 837 FPS Energy: 275 FPE Drop:-[url] 24.7in[/url]

I'm not sure you want to stretch your range out that far with a .50 for killing animals unless your shot's are spot on. Even then, it looks like your shots would be limited due to momentum issues past 120 yds. My self-imposed limit is 80 yds for killing deer with my .50.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Good info Trench but your trajectory figures are a bit skewed by the 75 yard sight in range. A .50 caliber ball at 1800 fps shoots flat enough to stand zeroing at 100 yards and that will allow a dead center hold to 125 yards and a top of the shoulder hold at 150, where it will have a retained energy of 304 ft.lb.
The same 80 grain load in a .54 will do only about 1500 fps with 340 ft.lb remaining at 150 yards and considerably more drop than the .50 caliber. So the difference between .50 and .54 for "long shooting" is a choice between slightly more retained energy from the .54 or considerably flatter trajectory from the .50 caliber. Since it is all about shot placement I would prefer the faster and flatter shooting .50 caliber. But it really is a moot point because neither are adequate much beyond 100 due to difficulty of shot placement.
One very big factor in long range shooting with round balls is wind. In that area there is even less difference between the two choices. A .495" ball started at 1800 fps will drift 23.69" at 150 yards by a 10 mph cross wind while a .535" ball at 1500 fps will drift 23.36" at 150 yards. These figures are from the first edition Lyman Black Powder Manual. As you see, both balls drift more than 2" for each mph of cross wind and even a very slight breeze will drift the ball out of the kill zone and into the paunch. That is why it is just good sense to limit shots to 100 yards on a good day and even less if there is a bit of wind.
I hate "modern muzzleloaders" but if a hunter feels he absolutely must take long shots I'd very much prefer he shoot an inline with pointed sabot bullets rather than try to stretch the range of traditional roundballs.

 

[bart_anastasi]

You may be asking a bit much on range with a 50 cal RB but with a T/C conical the data below is from page 87 of their owners manual

50 cal 375 gr maxi with 100 grains of 2f


range 0 impact -.8 velocity 1465 energy 1764

range 50 impact +2.1 velocity 1213 energy 1209

range 100 impact 0 velocity 1044 energy 896

range 150 impact -9.6 velocity 942 energy 729

This could be do able or you could look for a conventional hunting bullet with a higher BC .

I recently took a delivery on some Parker conventional hunter bullets in 45, 50 and 54 that are a bit more stream lined and I will assume will shoot flatter.

 

[BEP]

Maybe a little off topic, but you are to be commended for not taking that shot when you weren't sure about it. There are way too many folks today that lack your good judgement. :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[Dphar]

I'm just wondering if anybody has shoot a .50 cal prb at a target over 100 yards? The reason I ask is because during this past hunting season I had a big doe broadside to me at about 130 yards. I would like to know if I do my part will the PRB still be stable enough to reach 125-150 yards? Please remember that I'm still pretty new to traditional muzzleloading so right now my effective range is only 50-70 yards but that has more to do with me than it does with the ml. I hunt a large field so a shot that is over 100 yards is very possible. I plan on changing to 3f Goex and practicing every chance I get at at between 50-100 yards.

right now here is my set up

.490 round ball
.15 patch
26 inch barrel
80 grain pyrodex
1:48 inch twist
cci magnum #11 caps
T/C New Englander

Thanks a bunch!


Jerem0621

A 50 caliber hunting rifle should be sighted dead on at about 110-120 yards. This will require 90 gr of FFFG powder in most cases to give a flat trajectory, about 3" rise and fall from the line of sight over 130 yards.
HOWEVER, you MUST be very good with range estimation and you must practice and actually shoot at things at 130 or so yards. DO NOT exceed about 130 yards. Drop past this distance is very fast hitting at 150 is very problematical just for this reason. Test the load at 100 or father to see if it is suitably accurate. The rifle/shooter combination should be able to keep the shots within 4" at 100. Several 5 shot groups should be fired. All groups need to be under 4"
Wind drift can also be a major factor.
Yes, if loaded to the level noted a 490-495 RB will take deer to 130-140 yards with one shot kills IF THE SHOT IS PLACED IN THE LUNGS or gets the heart/main arteries. Unless you can shoot all your shots on paper into 6" at 130 don't shoot at a animal at this distance. In my experience the groups shot on animals are always bigger than those shot on the animal.
Always use a rest when shooting at game much past 50-75 yards or shoot from the sitting position.
The shorter sight radius of the 26" barrel makes longer shots harder.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I would also point out that bullet energy is largely irrelevant to this discussion. It does not equate into killing power. 55 gr 223 will out energy a 50 rb at 100 but the RB is a better killer on deer.

Elongated bullets are not the answer.
While I have never shot any from a ML I have shot a number of animals with BPCRs of various calibers and powder capacities with bullets of similar weights to the various ML bullets. In my experience a deer shot through the lungs with a 40-70, 45-70 or 38-40 (etc) or a 30-06 will generally travel about as far as if it is shot with a PRB within the PRB range, 100-130 yards. 40-50 yards is common.
Some will run farther, so will run less. Can vary widely with any caliber.
The "knock down" and "killing power" of the ML conical bullet is grossly overrated.
Three things are needed in a hunting rifle, sufficient accuracy to properly place the shot, sufficient penetration to kill the animal, and a flat enough trajectory to make hitting the vitals easy.
The PRB will do all this on animals much larger than deer if used as it should be. No long shots is KEY, set a limit based on the rifles point blank range which if properly sighted will be 115-130 yards for a 50 cal PRB and the rifle/shooters accuracy limitations.

Dan

 

[pepperbelly]

Dan those are very good suggestions.
If I might add some other ideas. Practice on the known distances at the range until you can hit inside that 4" to 6" group. Then go out and place targets at different, unknown distances. Practice until you can estimate range very well. Practice in wind from different directions and speeds to see what it looks like in the real world, not what it should on paper.
If you want to really have fun tie some balloons at various distances.
Remember, practice practice practice.

Jim

 

[jerem0621]

thanks everyone for the suggestions. I have only one more thing to do and that is to practice. I suppose I would be happy to keep the range around 100 yards. I've let a lot of deer walk for the sake of my ethics and the sake of pain and suffering on the animal. For me, I take every ball I load into my muzzleloader personal. If I can't gurantee where the ball will go I will not shoot. This past year a "muzzleloader hunter" (not much of a hunter imho) missed his deer and the bullet traveled into a cow field and killed a very expensive bull. If I shoot at long range (or any range) I have to KNOW that my bullet will hit its target. There is just no excuse for anything less.

Thanks again,

Jerem0621

 

[50cal.cliff]

I must commend you! :thumbsup: That's the kind of hunting ethics that makes the difference between, a hunter and someone who can pull the trigger, and we all know we have too many of the later!
I think the biggest thing is knowing yourself and your gun. IMHO a 100+ yards is getting to the outside effective range of .50 but,make no doubt about it, one in the proper place will take the Deer effectivly at that yardage.
If you do your part the gun will do it's part. You must have shot at all yardages and with different loads to know the load you know have in the gun will be effective at short yardage as well as that 100+ shot! You have to know how to adjust POA for a given yardage. Plus you have to be able to estimate yardage effectivly. I use to bow hunt and yardage is critical there too.
When scouting carry a rangefinder, now I know that not PC but it will be useful to get you where you can estimate a yardage. Look out at a tree, a scrub and a blow down some what in line with another. Estimate in your mind the yardage. Then pick up the rangefinder and check them for correct distance. If you got them right you can now draw three imaginary circles around your self usint those three refrence points, and you now know a given area for say 25yds, 75 yds, and a 100yds. It will make it alot easier when that Deer stepps out within those circles to estimate yardage. If you practise that enough you will be suprised how accurate your yardage estimation will get. If you don't have a range finder the same can be acomplished by stride measurement. Check your stride but the average mans stride is approx. 3ft or 1 yard. This info will also help you get use to measuring yardage by eye.
Bottom line if you don't feel comfortable about the shot, then by all means pass it up!

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I agree w/you Cliff. I shoot a .50 with primitive sights and figure it's double the range of a bow, I sight in at 50 yards off a rest and practice offhand at the same range, and leaning against a post at the range or tree when plinking on camping trip. a deer past 75 yards would have to be broadside standing for me to take a shot but I have shot out to 100 yds practicing some. but that's just me I don't claim to be a 'nimrod'. I took a running shot on a buck years ago at about 60 paces through light brush and wound up with a long track down in bad weather. don't want to do that again.