May be hope yet!

[ebiggs1]

I went to the Wildlife Parks and Rec yesterday to get my muzzleloader deer-hunting license. A Kansas game warden, they don’t call themselves that anymore, was there. I wanted to ask him a question on hunting restrictions in the Hillsdale Wildlife Area because the map is convoluted and hard to read. He cleared things up and was a really nice fellow. I mentioned I was a flintlock hunter and asked if he new of any other flintlock hunters in the Hillsdale Wildlife area. He said no and as a matter of fact he had never run into a flintlock hunter anywhere. He said all his encounters were with in-line mzzleloaders. Well that started it as you can imagine. I am not deathly against in-lines as most of you guys are but I am against them being allowed to use telescopic sights. He said there has been on going discussions with the powers that be, to change the muzzleloader requirements. I told him making them use open sights would go a long way at making the spirit of the muzzleloader experience possible. After that we can attack the other oblivious wrongs connected with them. So there may be light at the end of the tunnel for us flintlock hunters.

 

[MSW]

good deal! i agree that the use of scopes is really antithetical to the essential nature of muzzleloading. to do so just takes advantage of the dumb politicians who wrote the rules but had no idea what they were doing when they did.

as far as the use of those things which are not mentioned here, this is me being polite and not saying anything.

just one guy's opinion.

 

[Semisane]

Well, let's see if I can piss a lot of people off. :wink:

I hunt with a flinter because I enjoy doing so. I also hunt with a caplock because I enjoy caplocks too. (Dare I say it?) I also hunt with those unmentionable modern scope sighted suppository shooting HORRORS! And with cartridge guns, both rifle and pistol, and with a bow.

I hate the whole special season concept that caters to whatever special interest group makes the loudest noise in the State legislature or game department. As far as I'm concerned, there should be one HUNTING SEASON for all, with each person using whatever weapon tickles his fancy.

OK - THE FIRING RANGE IS HOT! :haha:

 

[vern faulkner]

BANG--BANG--BANG
I just couldn't resist it
:blah: :blah: :blah:

Vern

 

[Semisane]

Those BANGS are mighty close together Ancient One. You must be using a semi-auto. :surrender: :rotf:

 

[vern faulkner]

:thumbsup: You're probably bigger than me It's funny how fast you can shoot when you're scared :surrender: :surrender:

Vern

 

[hockeyref]

I would love to see a "primitive license" issued that would allow me to hunt exclusively with flint lock rifles and shotguns, and longbows\recurves with wooden arrows and obsidian tips.... Possibly a more liberal bag limit (like one buck and one doe per season rather than a separate doe tag) hunting during the currently designated seasons.... eliminate the multiple tags I need to purchase now....

As it is now, it's all about managing the number and sex of the animals killed. I truly believe it would be devastating to the deer population to allow modern center fire rifles to be used continuously from October through February.... Heck, I would settle for opening up to Sunday hunting....

Oh, and for the record... I have gone out with my longbow during the regular CF deer season here in PA.... Got some looks from other hunters, but most respected dedication to the primitive weapon. As to what I take out now, it's whatever is legal for that part of the season and tickles my fancy at the moment...

A lot of guys get their panties twisted up over crossbows.... I'm on record as being opposed to the use of the modern x-box in PA's archery season, but I would love to stir the pot a bit by building a middle ages style x-bow.... :blah:

 

[Semisane]

I agree it should be all about herd management. But it seems that too often management comes in second place to special interest. It all started many years ago when bow hunters (I'm one) lobbied for a special season all to themselves. The retailers loved it - sold a lot of archery equipment. Muzzleloaders weren't far behind. Again retailers loved it.

I realize herd numbers in different parts of the country may call for different plans. Down here in Louisiana the season limit is three bucks and three does per hunter, and a tag system is in effect. Bow season starts on October 1st. and ends Jan 31st, so bow hunters get four months to hunt. Primitive season is one week in mid-November and one week at the end of January, so muzzle loaders get two weeks to hunt. Modern rifle starts in late November and runs through January, so those hunters get a little over two months to hunt. With a total of six tags each, why shouldn't all hunters get to hunt with their weapon of choice from 1 Oct to 31 Jan? I doubt the overall harvest would change much.

 

[nchawkeye]

I don't concern myself as to how other hunters hunt, none of my business, just as how I hunt is none of theirs...

Frankly, they can run over them with a pickup truck if it's legal and it makes them happy...

Life's too short to worry yourself about such things...

 

[rabjr]

I dunno about the pickup truck but thats basically how I see it too. I could care less what anyone else uses, it has nothing to do with me. The biggest thing I wanted changed for years here and finally got them to see the light was letting us use our BP rifles during our shotgun season. We could hunt up until then with them but then had to hang them up for a shotgun or a smoothbore BP gun of .20ga minimum cal. Just wasn't right when the shotgunners could use the latested high tech rifled barrels and we were stuck with smoothbore only. Well now we can use our rifles so I have a choice to go out either with my Flint rifle or Flint Smoothie so I'm happy because I can hunt our entire seasons with a Flinter. Joe blow next door wants to use a zip gun, thats fine, I'm not hunting with him anyways.

 

[Gotspark]

Sounds like a good talk.Hope it happens.

 

[Tom Compton]

I agree about others using whatever is legal . . .BUT, if a season is said to be "primitive" it should be just that. I have bow hunted during rifle season and will again. I have also hunted with a traditional fixed sight ML (flint and persuction)during rifle season and probably will again.

Besides all of the buddy-buddy stuff and the $ changing hands with the legislators, the game laws are used to promote as well as prevent certain behaviors and harvests.

Bow seasons and other primitive weapons seasons help increase the harvest of does that the macho 7 Mag toteing "hunter" feels are beneath his station.

Then the $ and legislators get involved as some manufacturer came up with a new gadget to sell and they want the laws changed to allow the gadget. Inlines, sabots, scopes especially for MLs, etc

The bow hunters don't want long range and noisy rifles stirring up the deer. In Texas, crossbows were for years only allowed in gun season and for those with upper limb handicaps. I believe it was last year the legis made them leagal for bow season. A small young lady made a convincing plea to allow as she couldn't draw an adequate poundage on even a compound bow to hunt. It is my personal belief that her trip was funded by someone with a financial interest in getting crossbows legalized.

If it is to be a "primitive" season, make it a PRIMITIVE season. Long bows, recurves and traditional MLs with PRB and open sights.

Sorry for the soap box.

TC

 

[longcruise]

If it is to be a "primitive" season, make it a PRIMITIVE season. Long bows, recurves and traditional MLs with PRB and open sights.

We almost have that here, and guess what? Some of the bow hunters P&M about having ml hunters in the field with them for one week of their four week season. I hunt with bow and ml and our camps are often split between both. Most are tolerant but a few big mouths manage to sound like the whole herd!

I don't see any need for any special seasons.

Also don't understand the religious fervor to "convert" others to the ml or flinlock. Why?

 

[ebiggs1]

I am not opposed to using whatever you prefer either. I hope it didn’t sound like I was.
The problem is, if you are going to have a muzzleloader season or archery season you should obey the spirit of the law. This means you don’t use a crossbow in archery season, although the compound bows of today share very little similarity to a long bow. It also means you don’t let modern research develop a muzzleloader rifle that is guaranteed to shoot accurately out to 500 yards, which I saw advertised on one of the hunting channels.
In Kansas I can use my flintlock in any season except bow season. That’s OK.

 

[rawhide]

great talk going on here! well I my self mostly hunt with my cap lock .54 I do have a flinter but elk or deer here in wa. it rains like crazy!!!! some day maybe I'll hunt with it. still getting used to it. I srated hunting ml. because were I used to hunt in modern firearm seanon EVERY BODY WAS IN THE SAME SPOT. A deer didn't have a chance plus to me to dangeruos to many people. so I switched over. only other peaple I see is my hunting partners! well thats my 2 cents worth.

 

[hockeyref]

SO what is "primitive" enough? Longbows and recurves with modern epoxies and glass\carbon Lams? Sinew, horn, and hide glue lams? Real BP and PRB's Only? What about a faithful reproduction of a middle ages x-bow? What If someone says that your caplock is not primative enough because it's "too relialable"?

In PA, the rocklock used to be the only option - two weeks flint\PRB ONLY shared with archery after Christmas. Now you get 5 weeks - two flint\PRB ONLY shared with archery after Christmas, two in regular firearms season if you choose to eschew the cartridge gun, and one in early October that allows caplocks and modern front loaders as well as bullets other than PRB's. Archery gets about 2 months - 2 weeks after Christmas plus October until Thanksgiving. Regular firearms season has two weeks after Thanksgiving.

Don't wanna talk about the baldie tag regulations, but if you buy a front stuffer tag then you give up your doe app and have to wait until the over counter sales of left over tags start. I guess because they allow flinters to shoot either sex after Christmas. Otherwise, we have to count points - depending on which management unit you're in you need 3 or 4 points visible on one side...

I see it as a huge non issue... Hunt with whatever weapon catches your fancy. There are over a million hunters in PA and truthfully, I just want to find some time that I can walk a bit and not see anyone else.... :surrender:

 

[Richard Allen]

A few years ago they completed bastardizing our primitive weapons season in Georgia.

The Georgia Muzzleloading Association worked long and hard to get a muzzleloading season approved. We didn't even complain too much when they included the modern stainless steel and plastic abominations.

Then as soon as those shooting "modern muzzleloaders" got us outnumbered they began petitioning the state to allow them to use telescopic sights on their fantasy guns.

Tthe Dep't of Natural Resources held a few community meetings in order for us to explain why we supported or opposed the use of scopes. I went to one of those meetings and the house was packed. The supporters had all kinds of "good" reasons for needing scopes, such as: Since everyone knows modern muzzleloaders can shoot two or three times as far as those "old style guns" they need a scope cause at long range the front sight covers up the critter they are shooting at, its hard to see those open sights after the sun goes down, and its a lot harder for older folks whose eyesight is failing to shoot open sights.

I was able to hold my temper until one of the idiots said they needed scopes so that they could use them for spotting scopes and be better able to tell what they were shooting at. He said he often picked up other hunters in his scope after seeing movevement in the bushes.

I couldn't hold back any longer and stepped up and asked that A$$ if he had ever stopped to think where his barrel was pointed when he was spotting with his rifle scope? He said it was OK cause he kept the safety on and his finger off the trigger. I told him it WASN'T OK and it DANMED SURE WASN'T SAFE because if I ever caught someone looking at me trough a scope one of us was going to be leaving the woods bloody. The discussion moved on to other topics after my contribution.

Well the upshot of it all is the modern muzzleloader maunfacturers, the scope manufacturers, and idiots that support them won, the ones that originally worked for the primitive muzzleloader season lost, and Georgia now has a bow season and a "muzzleloader season".

Richard/Ga.

 

[rafterob]

I'm a firm believer that there should be a primitive season -bows and antique firearms, and a conventional season-Modern inlines included.

 

[hockeyref]

I used to get worked up over the guys that needed the gadgets and training wheels and stuff... but then I remember why I opted for the "primitive weapons" and I just laugh..... Thinking about the old adages - "Follow the money." and "It's all about the money." Heck, look at the catalogs... All manner of camo, scent blockers, gadgets, etc.... You don't need to spend the megabuck$$$ on that stuff to be successful but you do need some woodscraft. Folks think it helps minimize the lack of skills 'cuz there's a market for it. Crossbows used to be for folks that legitimately could not draw and hold a real bow or a wheel bow... but there was a vast untapped wallet out there of rifle hunters that could extend their seasons and buy more gadgets if they were legal. Heck, no learning curve, it's just like their rifle right down to the scope. :idunno:

Society has changed and will continue to change. Many of us are as much a dinosaur today as the mountain man was after the fur trade petered out and the West was tamed a bit....

 

[C Barker]

well said Hockeyref.