Minnie ball accuracy?

[Eterry]

Sorry I took so long to get back to you. I had a list of honeydo's and work to do that haven't had time for much else. So here it is at long last. I took the barrel off the first Contract Rifle that had been glass bedded and found:
The barrel is bedded around the bottom of the barrel up just past the first barrel band. In addition, they had fitted the rear of the barrel so as to have it touch the stock on the rear of the barrel rather than having the forces of recoil concentrate on the lockplate bolt or the rear of the tang. The second rifle split the stock just aft of the tang so I wound up bedding it like the first one & now it shoots a lot better. It wouldn't put a Minie on a piece of typing paper at 50 yards before-no kidding. This was from a rifle I had traded another good rifle for and which supposedly shot great. The bore was real dirty once I got around to cleaning it up before shooting it. He was a local guy so I figured he could be trusted. Will check those guns more thoroughly from now on! Hope this helps.

I've been burned a time or two also by people I thought thrust worthy...I feel your pain.
Thanks for the info about bedding.

 

[burlesontom]

My Lee 500 grain mine cast a .575, but I "beagled" it with receipt paper to get a .578 minie...much more accurate. My pet load is the 500gr Lee over 60grs fffg in my 58 cal Buffalo Hunter. Shoots 3 moa at 100 yards, made a clean kill on a huge buck last year.
I've shot 25 in one sitting before I ran out of light...but that was with my musketoon.

Eterry can you tell me more about "Beagled" molds? Thats a new one for me. Just when I thought I knew everything somebody shows me I don't. Lol.

I don't know if its any help to the OP but I killed my first Elk with a Cabelas 54 using a Lee Improved Minnie and 90grs of 2F. At 40 yards that slug blew right through that cow elk and whistled off into the woods. It had an exit hole I could stick 3 fingers into. 60grs would have killed just as well at that range.

I cast both the Lee REALs and Improved Minnie's for my 50 and 54 caliber guns. And I get more than better hunting accuracy out to 100 yards. I hunt close so these work fine for me. Most of the time I just use RB anyway. They kill fine too. But for Elk I would use the slugs over the balls.

 

[Stantheman86]

I found a guy on Gunbroker who sells solid base .575 Minies???

Kind of defeats the whole point of the Minie bullet?

 

[nkbj]

If you collect older Ideal / Lyman molds it is not uncommon to find that the plugs are interchangeable in their various .58 minies. That means you have 4 different bullets with two mold designs. Obtain a third design and you may have turned yourself into a small arms development test lab.

By the by, the progressive depth rifling was the ticket with the British service ammo with paper patching, initially cutting the paper into strips and squeezing it all back down on the way to the muzzle.

 

[Eterry]

Eterry can you tell me more about "Beagled" molds? Thats a new one for me. Just when I thought I knew everything somebody shows me I don't. Lol.

I don't know if its any help to the OP but I killed my first Elk with a Cabelas 54 using a Lee Improved Minnie and 90grs of 2F. At 40 yards that slug blew right through that cow elk and whistled off into the woods. It had an exit hole I could stick 3 fingers into. 60grs would have killed just as well at that range.

I cast both the Lee REALs and Improved Minnie's for my 50 and 54 caliber guns. And I get more than better hunting accuracy out to 100 yards. I hunt close so these work fine for me. Most of the time I just use RB anyway. They kill fine too. But for Elk I would use the slugs over the balls.

Sorry for the delay...If you go to Lee's webpage, under their FAQ page, type in "mold size" in their search engine you'll see a description of "Beagling" a mold under "Increasing Mold Diameter". Simply put, you take a real small piece of thin paper, (I used receipt paper), cut it to fit under/alongside the cavity, lube the paper with a thick grease, (I used Alox), and cast a larger bullet. I know the bullet wont be concentric, but a minie expands to fill the rifling, and the guys at Lee say you can go up 0.010" before accuracy suffers.

BTW, "Beagling" is a term used on a cast bullet forum, not sure where it comes from.

 

[TFoley]

By the by, the progressive depth rifling was the ticket with the British service ammo with paper patching, initially cutting the paper into strips and squeezing it all back down on the way to the muzzle.

The very first c*r*r*d*e-firing rifles used by the British military had a paper-patched bullet, but NOT progressive rifling. The earlier Baker rifle often used a thin leather/chamois patch, but that was it. All British and empire long arms used a paper cartridge that was disassembled by using teeth, had the powder poured down the barrel either before or after supplying the pan, and the load topped off with the paper then by the Minié bullet. I can't recall any long-arm other than the 24" barrelled Musketoon that had progressive-depth rifling - deep at the chamber, and shallower toward the muzzle, like mine.

As ever, I'm happy to accept corrections.

 

[rickpa]

"BTW, "Beagling" is a term used on a cast bullet forum, not sure where it comes from."

IIRC, Beagle is a member of the Cast Boolit forum and was the one who came up with this method of enlarging a mold.

 

[Jason Lewis]

The very first c*r*r*d*e-firing rifles used by the British military had a paper-patched bullet, but NOT progressive rifling. The earlier Baker rifle often used a thin leather/chamois patch, but that was it. All British and empire long arms used a paper cartridge that was disassembled by using teeth, had the powder poured down the barrel either before or after supplying the pan, and the load topped off with the paper then by the Minié bullet. I can't recall any long-arm other than the 24" barrelled Musketoon that had progressive-depth rifling - deep at the chamber, and shallower toward the muzzle, like mine.

As ever, I'm happy to accept corrections.

Sorry my friend, but all Enfield pattern rifle muskets had progressive depth rifling. The Enfield pattern paper cartridge was torn open with the teeth, powder poured in the muzzle and then reversed. The Pritchett bullet was then seated in the muzzle and the top portion of the cartridge which contained the powder was then snapped off. This created a lubricated paper patched bullet that was then rammed home.

The method you described was done with the flintlock muskets I.e the Brown Bess. Which of course used a round ball and not a minie.

 

[TFoley]

Sorry my friend, but all Enfield pattern rifle muskets had progressive depth rifling. The Enfield pattern paper cartridge was torn open with the teeth, powder poured in the muzzle and then reversed. The Pritchett bullet was then seated in the muzzle and the top portion of the cartridge which contained the powder was then snapped off. This created a lubricated paper patched bullet that was then rammed home.

The method you described was done with the flintlock muskets I.e the Brown Bess. Which of course used a round ball and not a minie.

Thank you for the correction.

I have only shot nekkid Miniés in mine.

 

[Jason Lewis]

Thank you for the correction.

I have only shot nekkid Miniés in mine.

Anytime I encourage you to look at britishmuzzleloaders on YouTube

 

[ResearchPress]

Sorry my friend, but all Enfield pattern rifle muskets had progressive depth rifling.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, the earliest Pattern 1853 Enfields had uniform depth rifling. Progressive depth rifling came into use in 1858. (D.W.Bailey, 'British Military Longarms 1815-1865')

David

 

[TFoley]

Anytime I encourage you to look at britishmuzzleloaders on YouTube

I bleeve that if you worked your way through them all from the very beginning you might see my comments here and there, but don't take my word for it.

 

[dave951]

I've been burned a time or two also by people I thought thrust worthy...I feel your pain.
Thanks for the info about bedding.

A word on bedding- I shoot NSSA and only 2 of my muskets are bedded. The others didn't need it. The ones that did, the inletting in the tang area was sketchy. One way to check if that is a problem area, with all barrel bands off the musket and barrel removed, lay barrel in channel and insert tang screw and finger tighten. Once it's down, observe the stock/barrel near the muzzle end as you tighten the tang screw with a screw driver. Go slow, if the barrel rises out of the stock as you tighten the tang screw, your gun will probably benefit from bedding. What's happening is the barrel is getting a deflection from the tang screw if the inletting is bad.

 

[dave951]

Aaand back to the original question-

To make a minie shoot well-

You must know the actual (not stamped) dia of the bore
The minie must be about .001-2 under bore size and pure lead
QC for weight and any other defects in casting
Avoid bp substitues- use only the holy black 3f is ok, adjust charge
Lube is critical
Cap is critical- CCI reenactors are nogo, get RWS or Schutzen

One of the carbines I shoot in NSSA competition is a 1st gen Parker Hale musketoon. Load-
RCBS Hogdon sized .576
42g 3f Old Eynsford
50/50 beeswax/lard
RWS caps
It will shoot 2moa reliably. I worked this up with much experimentation and the same load shoots equally well in my Parker Hale 2 band.

 

[32 ballard xl]

Many will argue that 55 grains will kill an elk, and that the 60 grain service load used to shoot through horses, but I would not feel comfortable shooting an elk with a 55 grain load.

He's talking about 55 grs. of 777, not black gunpowder. From what I know, the Armory load was 60 grains of ff grain gunpowder. This is a .58 caliber bullet, that's very close to a 9/16ths slug traveling in the neighborehood of 1000 fps. If that load would shoot through a horse, it'll do the same to an elk. Triple 7 is 10+ percent more powerful than 2f. That's why he suggested reducing the load to 55 grains OF TRIPLE SEVEN!

 

[dave951]

He's talking about 55 grs. of 777, not black gunpowder. From what I know, the Armory load was 60 grains of ff grain gunpowder. This is a .58 caliber bullet, that's very close to a 9/16ths slug traveling in the neighborehood of 1000 fps. If that load would shoot through a horse, it'll do the same to an elk. Triple 7 is 10+ percent more powerful than 2f. That's why he suggested reducing the load to 55 grains OF TRIPLE SEVEN!

Yes the service load was 60gr 2f but without any means of verifying the powder against modern black powder, I'd be a bit uneasy about making a direct comparison.

What many fail to understand is the concept of momentum of an accelerated mass v ft/lbs kenetic energy. Get a 500gr bullet trucking along just subsonic so there's no transsonic issues to deal with and, to borrow a phrase, quantity has a quality all it's own. Another way to think of it is a low velocity brick v a high velocity bb. They're both going to leave a mark duct tape can't fix. Yet another way to look at this, a .58 minie has about as much raw kenetic energy as a 44 mag. A more important issue here is can the hunter shoot? If he can't make an accurate shoot, he shouldn't pull the trigger.

 

[Eterry]

Yes the service load was 60gr 2f but without any means of verifying the powder against modern black powder, I'd be a bit uneasy about making a direct comparison.

What many fail to understand is the concept of momentum of an accelerated mass v ft/lbs kenetic energy. Get a 500gr bullet trucking along just subsonic so there's no transsonic issues to deal with and, to borrow a phrase, quantity has a quality all it's own. Another way to think of it is a low velocity brick v a high velocity bb. They're both going to leave a mark duct tape can't fix. Yet another way to look at this, a .58 minie has about as much raw kenetic energy as a 44 mag. A more important issue here is can the hunter shoot? If he can't make an accurate shoot, he shouldn't pull the trigger.

As Always, its WHERE you hit them, not with WHAT you hit them...to a point. I knew a local guy who killed a mature cow elk with a 22 WMR; he was stranded in Elk camp and hungry. It took a magazine full in the neck/head area to get the job done.
I also know a guy who wounded one with a 338 Win Mag, followed the trail until dark, went back the next day, searched all day, no elk.

So if you use some common sense, practice a LOT, limit your range to where you know you will connect where you aim, and live a good life the Lord may smile on you and provide an elk. Hunters take elk every year using a stick, a string and another pointy stick, so I know I can kill one at 50 yards with my 58 Buffalo Hunter. I just need to be up there where they live.

 

[32 ballard xl]

Yes the service load was 60gr 2f but without any means of verifying the powder against modern black powder, I'd be a bit uneasy about making a direct comparison.

What many fail to understand is the concept of momentum of an accelerated mass v ft/lbs kenetic energy. Get a 500gr bullet trucking along just subsonic so there's no transsonic issues to deal with and, to borrow a phrase, quantity has a quality all it's own. Another way to think of it is a low velocity brick v a high velocity bb. They're both going to leave a mark duct tape can't fix. Yet another way to look at this, a .58 minie has about as much raw kenetic energy as a 44 mag. A more important issue here is can the hunter shoot? If he can't make an accurate shoot, he shouldn't pull the trigger.

It's really pretty easy to verify, isn't it? We know the weight of the ordnance Mine', and we know the desired muzzle velocity. Desired Ordinance MV is 970-1030 fps. I'd start at 50 grs. fffg or 55 grs.ffg and work my way up until I was in the ordinance preffered window, then trim for accuracy.

 

[dave951]

It's really pretty easy to verify, isn't it? We know the weight of the ordnance Mine', and we know the desired muzzle velocity. Desired Ordinance MV is 970-1030 fps. I'd start at 50 grs. fffg or 55 grs.ffg and work my way up until I was in the ordinance preffered window, then trim for accuracy.

If you explore other minies, the mass will vary. Also try starting in the low 40 range for charge with 3f. It's odd but a 3 band with 3f of 35gr will yield similar ballistics and accuracy to a 2 band with 44g. This isn't idle speculation as I have both a 2 and 3 band Colt Contract and that's what they shoot. My guess is the 3 band barrel length uses the charge more efficiently.

 

[Dr5x]

REGARDING THE ORIGINAL QUESTION THIS THREAD PROPOSES MINNIE BALLS ARE EITHER ACCURATE IN YOUR RIFLE OR THEY ARE NOT. THERE ARE ONLY A FEW ADHUSTMENTS POSSIBLE, IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND THEY ARE POWDER CHARGE AND THE LUBE YOU PUT IN THE GROOVES, IF ANY.
WITH PRD THERE A NUMBER OF ADJUSTMENTS NOT AVAILABLE TO THE MINIE.

DUTCH SCHOULRZ

It's really pretty easy to verify, isn't it? We know the weight of the ordnance Mine', and we know the desired muzzle velocity. Desired Ordinance MV is 970-1030 fps. I'd start at 50 grs. fffg or 55 grs.ffg and work my way up until I was in the ordinance preffered window, then trim for accuracy.