Misfires and Hangfires

[bighole]

Hello,

I've read the posts on similar problems but my procedure is a bit different as I wasn't wiping between shots so hopefully you can shed some light on it.

I started off with a clean barrel, nipple and all was dry and in good shape. Fired 3 caps to start things off. 11 shots went off with excellent groups. My 12th shot was a misfire. The cap went off but no ignition. I stuck a small paperclip in the nipple hole and it was plugged up. I worked it in and got it cleared. New cap and it hangfired and shot was low. I removed the nipple and it was plugged. Cleaned it out got 2 good shots off. After that there was nothing I could do to get a clean shot. Everything was a hang fire. Checked the nipple many times and it was always clogged. It ended my day.

Last week I sighted it in with the same procedure and didn't have any problems but I only fired 8 shots. Too much BSing, not enough shooting.

I'm using Triple 7, CCI #11, TC Maxi Balls with vegatable wad underneath for 9 shots then the rest were Hornady Plains bullets also with the wad underneath, pushed on top of the powder charge before loading the bullet. It's a GM 45 cal bbl drop in for TC Hawken. It has a Knight Red Hot nipple that came with it and I also have an extra one that clogged as well. I did not wipe between shots so I wasn't pushing all the crud into the flash area. The flash channel wasn't perfectly clean but it wasn't clogged solid either.

Just remembered something. I started with Rem #11 caps from 1982 for about 6 or 7 shots and ran out and then used CCI #11's. Don't know if mixing them had anything to do with it.

Please be kind and don't recommend Goex or Swiss or real black powder. It's not an option at this time. Triple 7 is what I'm using and I had 11 great shots with it until the clogging started. I'm sure this is a common occurance and you guys will know what to do.

Thanks!!

 

[RedFeather]

First, what are you shooting? Second, with my Zouave and regular old Minnies I was using Crisco to lube the hollow bases. Managed to get off maybe three-four shots and then had some pretty significant hangfires. Had to wipe it out well and went on just lubing the outside bands whic eliminated the problem. What are vegetable wads? Are these commercials wads pre-treated with some kind of vegetable grease or something you made yourself? Sounds like the base wad is soaking into the powder and gumming you up. You heated barrel will do that to it. Try just lubing the outside and maybe a drier under wad like an Ox-Yoke or even a piece of cardboard.

RedFeather

 

[Zonie]

It does sound like the CCI caps you have may be the answer.
Without getting into the "CCIs are a piece of cr**" debate, I have found that some production lots of caps, reguardless of the maker can be weak or just plain bad.

When caps or primers are made, all of the ones made in one continuous "run" are assigned a lot number. This number is changed each time a new batch of primers/caps are made.
CCI marks the lot number on the side of the lid using numbers and letters that are formed with little ink dots.
Write down the number and see if you can find some CCI caps with a different number or possibly a different brand of caps.

You didn't say if your leaving the hammer down or a spent cap on the nipple but if you are, that can cause the little hole in the nipple to get packed with manure when you ram the next load.
Make sure the nipple is uncapped and the hammer is at half cock when your loading. Doing this has helped to decrease hang fires and missfires.

 

[crockett]

This is going to run up your cost of shooting but you could try dry firing a cap between shots or maybe every second or third shot. Aim at a blade of grass, etc and the blast of the cap ought to move the grass, or sandy soil, etc. In the course of the day the overall cost isn't that much compared to messing with hangfires, etc.

 

[Landngroove]

First, what Zonie said about keeping the hammer at half cock, when loading may solve the problem. Air trapped in the barrel, is pushed out the nipple this way, possibly clearing any crud in it. If it were me I also would try another brand of # 11 cap. The German, Dynamit Nobel, in the red tin are time proven. IMHO I like the standard # 11 nipples that come with T/C muzzleloaders. If I do my part, they work. I have never used a hotshot nipple.

 

[bighole]

First, what are you shooting? ...
What are vegetable wads? Are these commercials wads pre-treated with some kind of vegetable grease or something you made yourself?

Red Feather,

I'm shooting a GM Dropin 45 cal barrel in a TC Hawken. You probablly missed that in my long message.

Vegatable wads are like cardboard just made of vegatable fiber instead and a bit thicker. No lube just dry like the long range guys use. Actually one of them recommended them to me. They're sold at alot of places, Track the Wolf, Buffalo Arms etc. They make loading the maxi's real easy as they scrape the bore as you push them down on top of the powder.

The bullets are TC Maxi Balls with their lube on them. Can't buy them without the lube so it's nothing weird I came up with.

 

[bighole]

It does sound like the CCI caps you have may be the answer.
Without getting into the "CCIs are a piece of cr**" debate, I have found that some production lots of caps, reguardless of the maker can be weak or just plain bad.

You didn't say if your leaving the hammer down or a spent cap on the nipple but if you are, that can cause the little hole in the nipple to get packed with manure when you ram the next load.

I thought the Rem caps were the manure and CCI were good so I bought the CCI. I don't want to get into that debate here as well.

I don't leave the hammer down while loading. It didn't seem safe to me to leave a smoldering cap on when loading but I think that's a debate also.

I fire the shot. Look at the cap and wait a few seconds for it to stop smoking. I then cock the rifle and remove the cap and leave it exposed until I'm ready to fire again. With the longer nipples I can't get the cap off unless I full cock it.

 

[Mad Professor]

This is going to run up your cost of shooting but you could try dry firing a cap between shots or maybe every second or third shot. Aim at a blade of grass, etc and the blast of the cap ought to move the grass, or sandy soil, etc. In the course of the day the overall cost isn't that much compared to messing with hangfires, etc.

I think Crockett has some good advice.

I was shooting conicals with lubed wonder wads similar to you but swabbing between each shot. The only time I had misfires was after many shots and the problem was not a clogged nipple but manure between the nipple and the charge. It was a winter range session and when I snapped a cap into the snow noticed a lot of manure came out of the barrel. After that, every 3rd or 4th shot I'd snap a cap before loading the next shot and never had another misfire nor saw as much manure come out the barrel when snapping the cap.

One other thought. The new standard procedure for making GM percussion barrels involves inserting a stainless steel helicoil to thread the nipple into. When I first got mine (GM 54 cal 1-28 twist for TC renegade) I had a lot of hangfires/misfires due to the helicoil being inserted too deeply. I noticed this when I couldn't fit a piece of wire through the cleanout hole on the side of the snail; the helicoil was blocking the flame path. I contacted GM and they said I could send the barrel back for repair but I fixed it myself by snapping off the bottom two threads of the insert. Originally I thought this problem was bad caps because a certain brand was giving me the misfires but CCI magnum #11 caps were hot enough to overcome the problem.

Anyway if this is a newer GM barrel check to see that the passage to the barrel is not obstructed by the helicoil.

 

[Zonie]

Mad Professor: You may have something there.
I recall reading about your Heli-Coil problem and have to agree, it the GM barrel has one it may well be blocking the path to the main charge.

bighole: you ought to be able to see the drilled hole that connects the nipple hole with the bore. Give her a look.

 

[bighole]

bighole: you ought to be able to see the drilled hole that connects the nipple hole with the bore. Give her a look.

I can see the hole under the nipple. It's not directly under it in the middle but it is completely exposed under it. It isn't as open under the nipple as my old 54 cal TC barrel.

This wouldn't cause the nipple to clog up would it?

 

[davy]

Just a thought here .. you said that as you were loading the veg wads they "scraped" the bore as they were loaded ... could this in-advertantly be "pushing" gunk down into the powder chamber as you load the weapon .. perhaps creating a block just like the "barrel swabbing" you were "not" doing? :hmm:

A mind is a turrible thing ... :cursing:

Davy

 

[roundball]

The new standard procedure for making GM percussion barrels involves inserting a stainless steel helicoil to thread the nipple into. When I first got mine (GM 54 cal 1-28 twist for TC renegade) I had a lot of hangfires/misfires due to the helicoil being inserted too deeply.
Anyway if this is a newer GM barrel check to see that the passage to the barrel is not obstructed by the helicoil.

GM caplock barrels have "helicoils" instead of drilled/tapped nipple seats???
Never heard of anybody doing that before...wonder if that's why they have the huge clearance sale of those barrels going on right now...selling them off in pairs at ridiculously low prices.


Anyhow, makes me think of something worth mentioining:
For the past year and a half, GM has had a barrel recall published on their website of nipple seat and vent liner seat thread problems, with serial number ranges published as well.

The problem was that they went to a new drilling/tapping tool and process a couple years ago, which left the threads too short in height and not sharp enough...same situation whether a 1/4 x 28 nipple seat or a 1/4 x 28 vent liner seat...(never any mention about a "helicoil" being used for caplocks in my discussions with them).

I had to return a few month old .58cal Flint barrel in that S/N range and they installed a new breechplug with correctly drilled & tapped vent liner seat.

 

[Spring]

I'm going to pick up on one thing Davy said.

Shortly after I got my GPR I had similar problems. In fact, by swabbing between shots I was pushing alot of gunk into the patent breech until it was well caked. The wetter the patch the worse the problem.

I still swab between shots but I'm careful to make sure I clean the breech as necessary as well.

When I run a patch down the bore after a shot I look for a whisp of smoke coming out the nipple. If I don't see smoke I listen for a hiss. If I don't hear a hiss I'll run another patch with my finger just off the nipple enough to hear the air rushing by it. If I can't tell that air is exiting the nipple un-obstructed, its time to clean the breech.

The result? No more hangfires/misfires.


Cheers!

 

[bighole]

Anyhow, makes me think of something worth mentioining:
For the past year and a half, GM has had a barrel recall published on their website of nipple seat and vent liner seat thread problems, with serial number ranges published as well.

The problem was that they went to a new drilling/tapping tool and process a couple years ago, which left the threads too short in height and not sharp enough...same situation whether a 1/4 x 28 nipple seat or a 1/4 x 28 vent liner seat...(never any mention about a "helicoil" being used for caplocks in my discussions with them).

Funny but I just got mine for Christmas and my serial number is prior to that listed on their website. If the recall problem is from 2 years ago I must have a barrel older than that.

I will say after looking at the breech plug on my barrel it's a piece of manure!! The hole isn't drilled under the center of the nipple hole, it's not as open under the nipple as my TC 54 and the nipple doesn't line up under my hammer in the center.

Drop in?? Well I guess it did drop in but that's about all. I thought the GM barrels were supposed to be so good. Maybe the quality is only on their Knight line.

 

[roundball]

MY TC's all have patent breeches too...so I carry a regular rifle cleaning rod to the range with me that has a .25/.30cal brush on it...I use it to periodically slide a damp patch all the way down into the patent breech to clean it, then a dry one.
I also use that approach to get a lubed patch down in there after cleaing & drying the rife before I put it away

 

[Mad Professor]

GM caplock barrels have "helicoils" instead of drilled/tapped nipple seats???
Never heard of anybody doing that before...wonder if that's why they have the huge clearance sale of those barrels going on right now...selling them off in pairs at ridiculously low prices.


Anyhow, makes me think of something worth mentioining:
For the past year and a half, GM has had a barrel recall published on their website of nipple seat and vent liner seat thread problems, with serial number ranges published as well.

The problem was that they went to a new drilling/tapping tool and process a couple years ago, which left the threads too short in height and not sharp enough...same situation whether a 1/4 x 28 nipple seat or a 1/4 x 28 vent liner seat...(never any mention about a "helicoil" being used for caplocks in my discussions with them).

I had to return a few month old .58cal Flint barrel in that S/N range and they installed a new breechplug with correctly drilled & tapped vent liner seat.[/quote]

Roundball,

I was confused too, thought I was sold a factory second barrel. The recall was for breach plugs that were machined with a bad tap. The fix was to helicoil these with stainless inserts. Apparently they feel that the inserts are more durable so now all new STEEL barrels have the inserts.

I got this information via email and direct phone conversations with Green Mountain (Rick Sanborn) and Track of the Wolf (Dave Ripplinger), the vendor I purchased the barrel from. Both were very polite and stood by their product 100%.

The barrels GM currently has on sale are not buggered up in any way that I can tell, I recently brought one and its a great shooter. They are 50 cal 1-28 twist STAINLESS barrels (yep I shoot conicals). This barrel being stainless has no helicoil :grin:

Below are copies of my email correspondence with TOTW and GM so you can see how they addressed the problem.

Best regards,

Tony aka. "The Mad Professor"

From: [email protected]
Subject: Green Mountain Barrel with hidden repair
Date: November 23, 2005 11:36:45 AM EST
To: @outdrs.net
Cc: [email protected]

Dear Mr. Truran:

Thank you for your nice e-mail message.

We were told that Green Mountain recalled a very few barrels, due to the possibility of nipple seats threaded with a broken tap.

Perhaps the factory elected to fix these, but Green Mountain normally does dispose of their re-worked barrels as seconds, nearly always due to cosmetic flaws. These are the cheap barrels you might see offered at Friendship, Indiana.

We were not aware that any of our normal inventory had been re-worked, since we would not normally open the parcels, remove the nipples, and look inside the barrels. Rather, we are focused on "same day shipment" of every order.

Regardless, Green Mountain will replace this barrel, no charge.

You may prefer to return it to us, and we will arrange replacement no charge. If so, send it to my attention.

Or, you may wish to short-cut the process, and return the barrel directly to:

Green Mountain Rifle Barrel Company
Mr. Rick Sanborn
153 West Main Street
Post Office Box 2670
Conway, NH 03818

Tel: 603-447-1095
Fax: 603-447-1099
E-mail: [email protected]

Mr. Sanborn is always eager to satisfy customers, and very prompt at resolving problems. We are delighted to sell Green Mountain Rifle Barrels, and our customers are repeat buyers.

You can depend on us to resolve any problem.

Glad to help,

David Ripplinger

Track of the Wolf, Inc.
18308 Joplin Street North West
Elk River, MN 55330-1773
Phone: 763-633-2500
Fax: 763-633-2550
Website:[url] www.trackofthewolf.com[/url]

On Nov 23, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Rick Sanborn wrote:

Mr. Truran,

The barrel in question is part of our current production. The threads for the nipple became visually suspect about a year ago and further dimensional inspection revealed a potential problem. A roll tap was used instead of a cut tap. While a roll tap produced threads that were in spec when checked with a go-no go pitch gage, we didn't like the dimension of the minor diameter. We elected to beef this up by boring out the threads and installing a stainless steel Heli-Coil. This creates a stronger and more durable thread than our original. This improvement was accomplished during the build of the barrel and is part of the barrel assembly. The fact that the technician installing the Heli-Coil did his job poorly does not mean the barrel was not new. We will, of course, exchange this barrel for a new one. The new one will have a Heli-Coil as part of the assembly, just like the sights and ramrod are part of the assembly.

Thanks

Rick Sanborn

CC

Dave Ripplinger

 

[roundball]

I will say after looking at the breech plug on my barrel it's a piece of manure!! The hole isn't drilled under the center of the nipple hole, it's not as open under the nipple as my TC 54 and the nipple doesn't line up under my hammer in the center.

Drop in?? Well I guess it did drop in but that's about all. I thought the GM barrels were supposed to be so good. Maybe the quality is only on their Knight line.

I understand...I sometimes think that by the time word of mouth reputation gets around about a company's product, year's can go by and whole company product lines, strategies, and/or management can change in that amount of time so reality may no longer meet the reputation by the time a purchase is made based upon that previous reputation.

And that situation is made worse by people on the Internet who see a post somewhere, and then forever start repeating what they'd 'seen' with zero first hand knowledge about what they're taking about.

I see it all the time...ie: people repeat comments still today "that TC flint locks eat Flints"...when in reality, that WAS the case YEARS AGO, but speaking from my own personal hands on knowledge, TC completely redesigned their locks AT LEAST 5 years ago, and they've been perfect since then because all of mine have been bought since then.

Another is the old wives tale that 1:48" twist barrels won't shoot round balls accurately...a zero credibility statement if there ever was one.

I've bought the following GM barrels during the past few years:
.62cal Flint Smoothbore
.58cal Flint round ball barrel
.54cal Flint smoothbore

Speaking from my personal first hand experience with these GM barrels made as "drop-ins" for TC Hawken:

All of these Hawken "drop-ins" had black thimbles and black ramrods with chrome tips, all of which I had to buy brass replacements for to match the Hawken furniture;

2 out of 3 of them had to have the under-rib removed, shortened, and reinstalled so the rib would clear the front of the brass nosecap and allow the barrel to seat all the way down into the barrel bed;

2 out of 3 had to have their wedge pin tenons removed and ground down smaller so they wouldn't hang so far down into the ramrod channel, preventing the ramrod from sliding in;

The vent liners were nothing more than large set screws with holes drilled through them, did not stop at any pre-established location...ie: I could just screw them in and they'd go in past the edge of the breechplug flat...I replaced all the the vent liners;

The quality & finish of the bluing is less than that on TC barrels, and the 'pan flash' has burned the bluing off the sides of the breech plugs on all three of them already;

The .58cal was recalled due to a drilling/tapping problem for the vent.

Once I got all those things corrected / completed the barrels have performed very well.
So, while the phrase "drop-in" initially led me to assume it was a duplicate of a TC barrel, particularly when looking at a barrel photo on the GM website, I have since learned that's not the case and all mine have required money, work, parts, and modifications to get them to the point I thought they would be at when I bought them.

NOTE:
To clarify for a few on this site who often 'jump to conclusions', this post is not 'bashing' GM barrels...it is a factual accounting of actual experiences with 3 GM barrels in response to another post in this thread.

 

[Zonie]

bighole: "I can see the hole under the nipple. It's not directly under it in the middle but it is completely exposed under it. It isn't as open under the nipple as my old 54 cal TC barrel.

This wouldn't cause the nipple to clog up would it?"

No, it was just a thought about what could be a contributing factor to your problem.

My take on the wad that your using scraping fouling down onto the powder is that would not effect ignition at all. With the powder loaded, any fouling that is scraped off of the barrel wall would just fall harmlessly on top of the new powder.

As for the flash hole not being centered under the nipple, IMO that is not a requirement of the design. What is a requirement is the hole must be open to the area under the nipple, and it must be far enough down that the threads on the nipple do not cover it when the nipple is installed.

I still feel the pluging of the nipple is either a problem with the caps you bought, the nipple has a undersize hole in it (less than .027), or both. :hmm:

 

[davy]

BTW does anyone have the dimensional measurements (length and diameter) of the powder chamber on a GM 50 cal barrel breechplug and the same for the TC 50 cal breechplug? I am wanting to turn down a fouling scraper for each that will fit well into the plug to remove the gunk.

Thanx :thumbsup:

Davy

 

[roundball]

BTW does anyone have the dimensional measurements (length and diameter) of the powder chamber on a GM 50 cal barrel breechplug and the same for the TC 50 cal breechplug? I am wanting to turn down a fouling scraper for each that will fit well into the plug to remove the gunk.
Thanx :thumbsup:
Davy

Davy, I have a few TC scrapers that I never use...the reason is the TC P/B is a continueous taper from the top of the breech plug down and around to the vent (or nipple)...with the taper constanty getting smaller and smaller the whole way...so those little curved tip scrapers only just barely get into the top 1/4" of the P/B. (I have a couple used, spare TC plugs I keep around for "show & tell")

What works far better is to simply thread a CF rifle brush (.22/.25/.30 cal size) onto a cleaning rod, and use the brush to grip/hold a damp patch and slide it all the way down into the P/B...rotate it around a couple turns and voila, a clean P/B...follow it up with a dry patch, then even a lubed patch if you want to.

Soaking / cleaning the hooked breech barrels in a bucket of hot soapy water has kept the P/B's spotless for me, avoids any buildup.