Misfires? Can I use BP behind Pyrodex?

[Josh Smith]

I just checked the hole in a brand new Hot Shot nipple.
It'll pass a #65 drill which is .035"
Another nipple I have here passes a #60 which is .040"
Seems foolish IMO to start drilling out nipples when mis-fire problems probably lie elsewhere.

Hello,

Let me rephrase this:

I had the exact same problem. CVA/Traditions/Investment Arms etc have nipple holes which are too small for magnum caps, on the order of .020".

They need to be bigger. They simply do not pass enough flame to reliably ignite anything but Holy Black.

Locally, I've been encountering this problem. In all cases, a drill out as I described cures it.

The .020" will ignite Holy Black just fine. Just nothing with a higher flash point.

In other words, I do mostly agree with you. But if it gets him reliable ignition, I think we can shove aside the rule for right now.

The passages in most 6-1 and 6-.75 nipples I've seen are simply too small.

At least check it while it's out. That's all I'd ask - make sure it's big enough.

To clarify: It would seem that T/C came to the same conclusion, or rather, I came to the same conclusion as T/C: .020" is too small; a .040" is better.

Josh

 

[JMinnerath]

I dunno, I haven't been able to get any BP shipped in yet, so I've been using Shockey's 2F with never a mis-fire.
If that crud will light off about anything should.
It looks like they used old window screen to size it.

 

[Dave K]

I agree with some of the others. DO NOY drill out the nipple! There is a reason that it is what it is and that is because it works and has for approaching 200yrs. It is the Pyrodex that is your problem and you can help it, just like they do with the Pyrodex pellets, but a little BP down first. I am not telling you to do this, but if it were my gun and time was this short, that is what I would do. If I was shooting 80gr. of Pyrodex, I would load with 10gr. of BP and then 70gr. of Pyrodex on top. This is what I would do, but I am not the one to tell you to do that. I am going to cover my tail and not tell you to do that. If you look at Pyrodex pellets, you will see that one end is black and you are told to put that down the bore first. That is because it is BP on that end. So even the Pyrodex people are very aware of your problem. Drilling out the nipple will lower the pressures that are behind the ball and change your impact.So accuraccy will go away. Drilling it out will also increase the load given to the hammer and therefore the lock mortice.

 

[Josh Smith]

Not sure what the stigma against drilling out a nipple that's iffy anyway is, especially if the hole is too small.

Yes, the problem is the Pyrodex - that's the primary problem, anyway. But makers are solving the problem with bigger flash holes. I'm not advising anything T/C and many others didn't already think of.

What's the thread pitch on that thing? If it's 6-1, I'll just send a modified nipple that I know will work. It's my backup, but I have a ready supply of CVA Perfect Nipples at the gunstore.

Josh

 

[Zonie]

I have never heard of a company who makes nipples offering a special one with a large hole in it for Pyrodex powder. Most of the nipples come with a .026-.028 hole in them.
This small hole is intended to keep an excessive amount of powder gas from escaping and blowing the hammer back.

Enlarging the hole will reduce the breech pressure and make the burning rate of the powder inconsistent. IMO, it is a poor way to address the Pyrodex ignition problem.

As was suggested above, remove the nipple and drop a few granules of either black powder or Pyrodex into the hole and reinstall the nipple.
It will fire first time every time if this is done.

The threads on the Italian guns nipples are M6 X .75. The M6 X 1 nipples are only used on the Spanish guns like the CVA and Traditions rifles.

 

[Josh Smith]

I just checked the hole in a brand new Hot Shot nipple.
It'll pass a #65 drill which is .035"
Another nipple I have here passes a #60 which is .040"

I just take the .020" hole from a CVA Perfect Nipple and drill it to Hot Shot specs. The rest of the design is pretty much the same a as Hot Shot.

I'm just not seeing the problem. If the Hot Shot doesn't blow the hammer back, why should a Perfect Nipple with a .040" hole?

Playing a vid in slow-motion shows no hammer lift.

Josh

 

[necchi]

Get a 100 shot's down that over size hole,,
,, the issue is refered to as "gas cutting" it IS an inevitable issue with all nipples.
And this issue does affect accuracy, could be one of the reasons you don't see an improvment in accuracy when changing other variables. And/or why your not getting the tighter groups you hope for.
I happen to use Knight "Red Hot" nipples, the orfice is .032, and with many "specialized nipples" it's the internal configuration of the channel as it applies to the exterior flash port design. These things are designed to force ignition flame out in a jet shape. Mess with the hole, you mess with the design. Kinda like a carberator jet, can't be plugged, can't be too big.
All nipples are not created equal.
Those RedHot's I use last about 200-250 shot's before the gas cutting is significant enough to open my groups. That's almost a season, almost, so that's two a year. That little hole opens just a bit,,my groups change from nice-n-tight to Bigger.

"I drilled out my nip, now it goes bang everytime,,I wonder why my groups are so big"
:idunno:

Ya gotta work out the variables one at a time. A shotgun approch to finding a good load and combination dosen't work here.

 

[hjjusa]

I had a rifle that was misfiring, I don't know exactly what it did, but I poured a little gasoline down the barrel and not being sure what it would do I braced it in a tire and fired it. Shot a big ol flame out the barrel but it worked fine after that. :idunno:

 

[Josh Smith]

Get a 100 shot's down that over size hole,,
,, the issue is refered to as "gas cutting" it IS an inevitable issue with all nipples.
And this issue does affect accuracy, could be one of the reasons you don't see an improvment in accuracy when changing other variables. And/or why your not getting the tighter groups you hope for.
I happen to use Knight "Red Hot" nipples, the orfice is .032, and with many "specialized nipples" it's the internal configuration of the channel as it applies to the exterior flash port design. These things are designed to force ignition flame out in a jet shape. Mess with the hole, you mess with the design. Kinda like a carberator jet, can't be plugged, can't be too big.
All nipples are not created equal.
Those RedHot's I use last about 200-250 shot's before the gas cutting is significant enough to open my groups. That's almost a season, almost, so that's two a year. That little hole opens just a bit,,my groups change from nice-n-tight to Bigger.

"I drilled out my nip, now it goes bang everytime,,I wonder why my groups are so big"
:idunno:

Ya gotta work out the variables one at a time. A shotgun approch to finding a good load and combination dosen't work here.

Hello,

I got the grouping problem figured out. It was all me, as I suspected. It will do one or two inches consistently at 55yds.

I just have problems shooting at paper. I was out today shooting limbs I stuck in the ground, standing.

I'm like that with rimfire, too. I just don't know.

Drilling out this particular Perfect Nipple or whatever it's called, just doesn't change the internal configuration.

However, I'm still looking for a Hot Shot in 6-1.

If the nipple weren't already ruined on the OP's rifle, I wouldn't suggest this to him, but it should still shoot minute-of-deer-vitals even drilled out to 1/16".

My idea is to get it working. I don't think it's going to be shooting to its potential with a messed up nipple, so I just say go for it.

Josh

 

[bubba15301]

the first thing op has to do is get rid of all the oil in the barrel and nipple . i think this is 99% of his problem. i never had a problem igniting pyrodex powder.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Items #1 and #2 are your real problems. Once you isolate them, and correct them, the rifle will go bang with just about ANY nipple, worn-out or not!

Your problem is one of improper cleaning and/or improper storage, and you made yourself a real mess down in there with a crud ring from too much oil in the flash channel prior to loading the rifle. You need to use a good brush, along with your favorite BP cleaner ( I use Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine), hot water, and a lot of elbow grease to get that crud out of there altogether. Put the end of the breech into a bucket of hot water, use a mop with the cleaner on it on your RANGEROD, and pump like heck, and you'll see when the crud ring breaks apart, cause loose chunks of crud will flow out of the breechplug! Every time that you clean the rifle, it should be broken-down, put into a bucket of some sort, and use the pumping action/remedy that's been explained.

As to using a duplex-type charge, yes it will work. The best advice for right away is to remove the nipple and sprinkle-in some Pyrodex right under the nipple. Also wrap the side of the barrel a couple of times to get those large Pyrodex grains to travel down the flash channel and wind-up underneath the nipple. It should go bang!

I can use a half-pound of the holy black in a single outing. If the weather cooperates, I don't even have to use a spit patch! Never a miss-fire cause the rifle is stored muzzle-down .

Good luck!

 

[roundball]

"...the rifle is stored muzzle-down..."

Amen.

 

[Jayhem]

Well fellas/ladies...I was able to find a fresh lb of GEOX FFFg black powder locally! $21 a lb but I don't need much.

I gave the gun a good cleaning with hot soapy water and really pumped it through the breech and flash channel. Let it dry then ran an alochol soaked patch down the bore and alcohol damp pipe cleaner through the flash channel followed by dry ones till bore and channel were dry as a bone. Trickled 10 grains of 3F BP down the bore, followed by 70 grains Pyrodex RS, seated the ball, capped and BANG!

Repeated this 10 times with no misfires, no hangfires. Swabbing lighting between each shot. Then I switched to 100% pyrodex charges and the gun still continued to go BANG! 20 shots or so and not a problem.

I think crud in the breech was my biggest problem. From now on better cleaning and I'll be using a 10 grain booster charge of 3F blackpowder on my hunting loads so I don't miss another deer from a misfire!

Thanks for all the suggestions they were a big help. Storing my muzzleloaders muzzle down from now on! :hatsoff:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I have very limited experience with Pyrodex, but I've read a fair bit about it, here and elsewhere, and there are two consideration that have not thus far been mentioned. The first is grain size. Pyro RS is fairly coarse grained, and that can be a problem in a firearm with a small-diameter passage between the nipple and the main charge, especially if there are any bends in it. In these circumstances, where "RS" is giving ignition problems, the cure has often been switching to Pyro P, with appropriate charge adjustment. The smaller grains of "P" can more consistently get down into the flash channel and get close enough to the nipple for reliable ignition. The second, and related, is procedure: holding the gun muzzle-up and slapping the side of the butt or the breech before ramming the ball, to settle some powder down into the channel. This latter change in procedure is often necessary even with 3Fg black in chambered breeches with narrow chambers (like my Pedersoli Frontier) and/or tortuous ignition pathways.

I'm glad you found a workaround for the time being. Good hunting.

Regards,
Joel

 

[4570Tom]

I had some ignition problems with Pyrodex with various TC rifles and a GPR. Switched to musket caps and musket cap nipples and had much better results.

 

[Jayhem]

Now that you mention it.

I did notice before after charging my rifle with Pyrodex RS, and removing the nipple, there was no powder or only a grain or 2 below the nipple! When I charged with BP, I checked under the nipple several times and the BP was packed tightly under the nipple as it should be. :thumbsup:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I just don't understand why guys can't use the powder the guns are designed to use. Black powder!

Not some wannabe substitute.

Black powder is not expensive and it's not hard to get.

You have a pound of BP that should get you through the hunting season, and you're still using Crapodex.


I don't get it.

I don't get misfires. I don't need to drill anything out. I don't need to mix powders. I just pull the trigger and it fires.

Simple.

 

[Zonie]

Yes, black powder can be bought on line or with a phone call but unless a person is willing to spend over $100 for the cost of the powder and Haz Mat fees it isn't too practical for someone who intends to shoot a half pound of powder a year.

Then there are "significant others" who object strongly to having 5 pounds of an explosive sitting in their cupboard.

For some folks, the nearest source of real black powder may be well over 100 miles away so that isn't always a good alternative.

For these people with a percussion cap fired gun who don't want to invest $100 in powder the synthetic powders can work quite well.
No, not as well as the real black powder but they do work and they often are available locally at many gun stores.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

So, they won't have to worry about powder for 10 years. :wink:

I shot 1/2 lb today. :idunno:

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

+1! :thumbsup:

If you have the real thing, why not give the "crapodex" away to somebody else?