Mixing Powder

[Pukka Bundook]

Brit,

As far as I am aware, there always was warnings against using 4F for anything other than priming. Warnings complete with exclamation marks.
As you have not seen or heard of these , I must question if these warnings are not present these days, or whether you have lived a sheltered life!
Going back 40 years, no-one "In their right mind" would use 4F as a regular charge, so what has happened in the interim period I do not know.
Greener in his book, (1910) Does show a well made express rifle, that was blown to smithereens with a normal Weight charge , but of a very fine grain black powder.
The difference between 4 F and say 2 F, is the way the pressure peaks. It racks up Much quicker with the finer powder.
It may be that in your larger bores, this pressure wave can drop faster as well. The danger I see, is what happens Before the mass of the projectile is set into motion.
It would not be responsible of me to Not pass on what we all at one time "knew", and leave it to yourself to dig out whether it was fact or fiction.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[drobs]

I've been experimenting with Goex 4F in my 2 of my steel frame Pietta C&B revolvers (1858 - 44 & 1851 - 36). Can't say I've noticed any nipple leakage. Report seems louder but recoil is the same as 3F. Without a Chronograph I can say if there is any more velocity.

 

[PluggedNickel]

I thought of purchasing some 4f for my Charleville, but after reading Paul V’s “FLINTLOCKS: How to shoot them.” I decided no need. I won’t be hunting with it. He recommended use 2f or 3f if it is damp, humid at all. Said save 4f for sunny day at the range? He didn’t explain why exactly, but I took it the courser grain meant more oxygen, less moisture absorbed. He said the difference in lock time is undetectable.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Brit,

As far as I am aware, there always was warnings against using 4F for anything other than priming. Warnings complete with exclamation marks.
As you have not seen or heard of these , I must question if these warnings are not present these days, or whether you have lived a sheltered life!
Going back 40 years, no-one "In their right mind" would use 4F as a regular charge, so what has happened in the interim period I do not know.
Greener in his book, (1910) Does show a well made express rifle, that was blown to smithereens with a normal Weight charge , but of a very fine grain black powder.
The difference between 4 F and say 2 F, is the way the pressure peaks. It racks up Much quicker with the finer powder.
It may be that in your larger bores, this pressure wave can drop faster as well. The danger I see, is what happens Before the mass of the projectile is set into motion.
It would not be responsible of me to Not pass on what we all at one time "knew", and leave it to yourself to dig out whether it was fact or fiction.

All the best,
Richard.

Thanks Richard.
I certainly don't doubt your word on the warnings, I just have not seen it myself.

Regards the the express rifle.
Apart from it being possibly here say or a misunderstanding of the account can we be absolutely sure of this one accounts claim that the sole reason the gun was destroyed was 100% due to 4f?

The next point is you say the book says "normal weight charges'.
I have repeatedly suggested a much reduced charge and not by weight.
I have repeatedly advised 3/4 or less volume measures from standards.

Regards the larger bores, I use it also in a .45".
I have also said with choice I prefer 3f but sometimes I in communistic Britain have to grab what I can!

Yes peak pressure is reached sooner but it does not exceed what a gun can take.

If our guns flew apart so easily we would hear of it all the time but we don't. There are scores of idiots far worse than me and we still don't here of muzzleloaders flying apart regularly.
Statistically one is more like to come to a sticky end by plugging the barrel accidentally while hunting than by a judicious load of fine powder.

All things being equal a .75 Bess should not have anything less than 1f in it!
I mean who draws this line?

Just look at all the flimsy barreled actions that contain smokeless charges that generate vastly higher amounts of pressure. But 4f black powder is going to at a reduced charge exceed smokeless in an equal if not thicker breach? Really?
The amount of h110 in that 45 Kentucky on YouTube was a huge amount before it let go.
Regards peak pressure being reached before the projectile starts moving is nonsense. Any projectile that does not start moving before peak pressure is reached irrespective of fuel type is a bomb!
Peak pressure is not reached without combustion, combustion does not occur without large volumes of gas produced, a projectile does not move anywhere unless large volumes of gas is being produced. In other words it all moves of together as one. If not you have a bomb and it won't mean a thing what powder is in there then as you are in real danger then!

Another thing I don't understand is, why did not Lyman when they did their black powder book confirm that 4f does destroy firearms?

All the best. Respectfully.

B.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Brit,

Sam Fadala did some experiments years ago, and found a regular piece of Copper water pipe, (Closed at one end by being stuck in a bean-tin full of melted lead and let cool) would stand 120 grains of 2F, and a patched .54 round ball, and Not even bulge.
With an air -space it bulged, and with More air -space it split wide open. (Second ball so far up the tube if I remember right)

I just add this as something extra food for thought.
I will look up Greener and let you know exactly what was written re. the fine powder.

Re your last line about Lyman B-P Handbook;
It would be wrong to say 4F destroys firearms. There are too many variables. They can be destroyed with any powder, If we do it right.

Best,
R.

 

[Sparkitoff]

I have a double barrel percussion that is occasionally temperamental. I use 3F in it now. It was suggested to me to drop 5-10 grains of 4F down the barrel first and reduce the 3F by that amount. I asked about the 3F making it's way to the bottom but the suggestor reasoned that since the load (powder/wad/shot/card) is compressed down the larger granules wouldn't move. I haven't done it but I have been contemplating it. After these posts, I am more apprehensive.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I have a double barrel percussion that is occasionally temperamental. I use 3F in it now. It was suggested to me to drop 5-10 grains of 4F down the barrel first and reduce the 3F by that amount. I asked about the 3F making it's way to the bottom but the suggestor reasoned that since the load (powder/wad/shot/card) is compressed down the larger granules wouldn't move. I haven't done it but I have been contemplating it. After these posts, I am more apprehensive.

The few grains of fine will end up in the flash channel and stay there as long as the bores are dry! If not the few grains of fine powder will just stick the barrel walls.
Alternatively open the nipples to .040" and have no more issues.

 

[tenngun]

So if I am use to shooting 2F, now I want to shoot 3F, I would decrease by 10% I believe is the formula, to get "approximately" the same performance. That is if my gun likes it . SO if I wanted to, would I not be able to decrease my powder charge even further to be able to use 4F as my powder charge? Yeah I might want to drop it even further than 10% below the 3F charge. I shoot 95grs of 2F in my caplock 50cal rifles. If I dropped that load to say 40-50gr of 4F, why would I not be able to shoot/work up a load using it? I can't see it building that much pressue when fired. I get not using it in a flintlock because the powder "might" fall out of the lower setting flash hole because of how fine it is, maybe (?), depending on the seating pressure of the ball compressing/packing the powder.

tenngun: Actually the 4F powder would settle to the bottom if mixed with 3F in a horn or any other container. The 4F being a finer grain would sift/move downward between the larger 3F grains, allowing the coarser grains to rise to the top and set on the finer powder below, with movement of the container. Think of it as a bag of potato chips, the larger chips are on top when you open the bag, the crumbs and smaller pieces are at the bottom of the bag. The more the bag is shaken the more they seperate, of coarse depending on how hard you shake the bag, the more crumbs you'll make and get in the bottom doing that . DANNY

Ha ha yup that’s right was thinking backwards

 

[8 BORE]

3F for the main powder charge and 4F for flintlock pan ignition
Dont mix them. Go to a shoot and maybe you can trade your 4F for some 3F.

 

[Jason Lewis]

If I recall correctly reading about original pistol cartridges being loaded with 5 and 6f. But that has been awhile ago.

 

[8 BORE]

Dont believe hearsay, speculation or 3rd party BS. 2 or 3 fg for a main charge and 4 fg for pan ignition.
Thats all that is needed.5 or 6 fg will have too much chamber pressure.
Dont experiment unless you want gun parts embedded in your body.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Dont believe hearsay, speculation or 3rd party BS. 2 or 3 fg for a main charge and 4 fg for pan ignition.
Thats all that is needed.5 or 6 fg will have too much chamber pressure.
Dont experiment unless you want gun parts embedded in your body.

Calling me a bull sh........ hey?

It is a well known fact that powder loaded into a cartridge becomes as a solid almost, I suppose like this pyrodex pellet things.
How powder burns loose and how it burns when in a compressed state is different.
Fine grains sits tighter together, the charge is compared larger grains in a more solid form. With large grains and the larger cavities through out the charge can allow the flame front to pass to the next grain quicker than a charge compressed to near a solid lump.

Please submit your factual information on guns exploding from 4f lest no one claims your words are false too!

B.

 

[arcticap]

I'm not advocating mixing powder granulations.
However, to keep the 4F powder from separating into the bottom of a flask or horn, a person would only need to measure each powder charge individually from a separate container.
I do that for revolver shooting anyway by pre-measuring each charge and placing it into a pill container before going to the range.
Or for those so inclined, they could bring 2 different flasks, keeping the powders separate,
I also use a funnel when loading the chambers to not spill the powder being poured from the pill bottles, but a person could make "paper powder cartridges" without including the round balls
and then load the balls afterward.

I've also read something about how some revolver cartridge powder back in the civil war days more closely resembles our 4F BP of today than it resembles our 3F BP of today.
This was claimed to be determined by the actual inspection of antique military paper cartridges that remained intact.
If this is true, and the original Colt revolvers could handle the more potent powder of yesteryear, then it would follow that today's modern reproduction revolvers should be able to safely handle a slight increase in pressure.
As long as it's done with moderation, it shouldn't be a safety issue if a person were to mix different powders in order to make use of it.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have a couple of pounds of 4F

Lotsa advice here on this subject. My response is: OK, NO and MAYBE. Really, with care you should be able to mix and shoot with no problems. But, as I see it, that 4Fg is pure gold to some other shooters where access to holy black is very difficult. I say, just save and if opportunity presents trade it off form something else you need. FWIW, I have about four pounds of it on my shelf also.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Lotsa advice here on this subject. My response is: OK, NO and MAYBE. Really, with care you should be able to mix and shoot with no problems. But, as I see it, that 4Fg is pure gold to some other shooters where access to holy black is very difficult. I say, just save and if opportunity presents trade it off form something else you need. FWIW, I have about four pounds of it on my shelf also.

I will not mix the powder's, do some horse trading with it

 

[8 BORE]

Calling me a bull sh........ hey?

It is a well known fact that powder loaded into a cartridge becomes as a solid almost, I suppose like this pyrodex pellet things.
How powder burns loose and how it burns when in a compressed state is different.
Fine grains sits tighter together, the charge is compared larger grains in a more solid form. With large grains and the larger cavities through out the charge can allow the flame front to pass to the next grain quicker than a charge compressed to near a solid lump.

Please submit your factual information on guns exploding from 4f lest no one claims your words are false too!

B.

You all can continue this worthless conversation on powders. What I said about 3 and 4 f powder is all you need to know. Dont confuse it with chemistry or other BS.

 

[Britsmoothy]

You all can continue this worthless conversation on powders. What I said about 3 and 4 f powder is all you need to know. Dont confuse it with chemistry or other BS.

I haven't spoken of chemistry!
All I ask is, please, can someone other than just express their opinion provide physical evidence that 4f destroys firearms?

So far my research has found Ruger saying any powder grade can be used in their old army revolver.
I have read about museum pieces of old paper cartridges for muskets containing fine powder akin to 4f or finer.
Early metallic cartridges containing 5f.
Swiss fines grades recommended for pistols and a general understanding that grain sizing today is different that that of old! Very early Lyman black powder loading books had recipes including 4f!

Can people please stop trying to vindicate an opinion as scientific proof. Pease please provide what if by the fear drenched reteric the factual evidence that supports the claims of doom?

Proof of an increase in pressure is not proof of pending doom.
4f is not just pan powder, other granulations work just fine in pans hence there is no need to make a special grade solely for flintlocks!

 

[Black Hand]

Dont believe hearsay, speculation or 3rd party BS. 2 or 3 fg for a main charge and 4 fg for pan ignition.
Thats all that is needed.5 or 6 fg will have too much chamber pressure.
Dont experiment unless you want gun parts embedded in your body.

I don't ever use 4F to prime - 3F for everything. Perhaps if I had small-caliber gun, I'd use 4F to prime, but I doubt it would be necessary.

 

[Black Hand]

You all can continue this worthless conversation on powders. What I said about 3 and 4 f powder is all you need to know. Dont confuse it with chemistry or other BS.

No one has mentioned chemistry as the chemical composition of the powder is irrelevant. The comments on loose vs. compacted powder, granule size and amount loaded are relevant. I am uncertain why you accuse people of posting BS or, having read the information above, what this BS might be...

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Brit Smoothy.

The turn of events in this thread has nudged me to take the take the time to post the following from Greener's book of 1910.
In his chapter on "Internal ballistics" he has this to say;
"When the explosive is confined by tamping, the pressure will rise very rapidly, and the velocity of propagation may give rise to a shock capable of detonating a portion of the mass. This is, no doubt the case with long charges of small grained powder ignited at the rear.
The forward portion of the charge is jammed up against the projectile----for the grains at the back are consumed before those in the front are ignited---the powder wedged between the burnt explosive and the projectile is crushed, and that part at least is detonated, producing enormous local pressure at the base of the bullet, which probably has not moved very far from its original position in the chamber".

"A characteristic example of this form of explosion came directly to the author's notice a few years ago with a .450 single "Express" rifle with "Field" breech mechanism and the barrel chambered for the 3 1/4 inch long taper solid -drawn brass case, for a charge of 125 grains of No 6 Rifle grain gunpowder, and a bullet of 260 grains.
"The owner of this rifle, after using it for some months, was induced by a friend to employ a very fine grained black gunpowder of foreign manufacture, --The owner was living in the south of Europe---and to try 4 1/2 drams, or the full charge.
"After firing several shots at a target, another similar cartridge blew the rifle into fragments, as shown in the illustration.
"Fortunately, the shooter escaped with nothing more serious than a severe injury to the hand.
The cartridges were tested, and found to give normally Three Times the pressure obtained with the rifle grain powder fired under the same conditions; The rifle was strong enough to withstand this, but was Not equal to a "Detonation" of the charge, and that this happened, the author has little doubt."

I can not add anything to the above, so post it as it was written. He has more to say on this, but copying from a book is very tedious.

Best regards,
Richard.