Mixing Powder

[8 BORE]

I am done with this manure. You all can spend your time with this I have better things to do.
Good bye

 

[Black Hand]

I am done with this manure. You all can spend your time with this I have better things to do.
Good bye

Bye...

 

[Britsmoothy]

Brit Smoothy.

The turn of events in this thread has nudged me to take the take the time to post the following from Greener's book of 1910.
In his chapter on "Internal ballistics" he has this to say;
"When the explosive is confined by tamping, the pressure will rise very rapidly, and the velocity of propagation may give rise to a shock capable of detonating a portion of the mass. This is, no doubt the case with long charges of small grained powder ignited at the rear.
The forward portion of the charge is jammed up against the projectile----for the grains at the back are consumed before those in the front are ignited---the powder wedged between the burnt explosive and the projectile is crushed, and that part at least is detonated, producing enormous local pressure at the base of the bullet, which probably has not moved very far from its original position in the chamber".

"A characteristic example of this form of explosion came directly to the author's notice a few years ago with a .450 single "Express" rifle with "Field" breech mechanism and the barrel chambered for the 3 1/4 inch long taper solid -drawn brass case, for a charge of 125 grains of No 6 Rifle grain gunpowder, and a bullet of 260 grains.
"The owner of this rifle, after using it for some months, was induced by a friend to employ a very fine grained black gunpowder of foreign manufacture, --The owner was living in the south of Europe---and to try 4 1/2 drams, or the full charge.
"After firing several shots at a target, another similar cartridge blew the rifle into fragments, as shown in the illustration.
"Fortunately, the shooter escaped with nothing more serious than a severe injury to the hand.
The cartridges were tested, and found to give normally Three Times the pressure obtained with the rifle grain powder fired under the same conditions; The rifle was strong enough to withstand this, but was Not equal to a "Detonation" of the charge, and that this happened, the author has little doubt."

I can not add anything to the above, so post it as it was written. He has more to say on this, but copying from a book is very tedious.

Best regards,
Richard.

Thanks Richard.
What grade is "No6"?

The debate is still open as this, quote, "was induced by a friend to employ a very fine grained black gunpowder of foreign manufacture, " is none conclusive and encourages assumption.

Does the article mention 4f?

Thank you Richard for your time in this.

B.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I am done with this manure. You all can spend your time with this I have better things to do.
Good bye

Amazing

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Brit,

Using today's ideas of granulation size can cause us confusion.
When I started shooting M-Loaders in 1970, Curtis' and Harvey's was our easily procurable powder in the UK.
They had by this time reduced the grain sizes available, to just TS2 and TS6.
The TS 6 (or number 6) was larger grained than our 2 F we get today, and TS2 was about he same as 3F....In other words, the grading was Reverse what we know now.
No 4 powder used to be a favourite, and was about Half Way between our 2 and 3F.. This likely accounts for confusion re. 4 F, "6F", and such.

To quote you;
"The debate is still open as this, quote, "was induced by a friend to employ a very fine grained black gunpowder of foreign manufacture, " is none conclusive and encourages assumption.

All I can say Brit, is that this May be inconclusive, but one hard fact remains;
The fine -grained powder racked up ***Three Times**** the pressure of normal rifle powder. (again, Rifle powder was number 6, Coarser than today's 2F)
This fact is indisputable, as tests were done with ammo loaded with this powder, and compared to the normal rounds.

As you can see from this, "encouraging assumption" is much safer than assuming a fine powder can be used as a substitute for a larger grain.

4F was not mentioned, simply because of the grading system used at the time. Number 4 is mentioned, and this was similar to 2F we get today.
Mixing Powder;
I should add that in an earlier chapter, he does mention on page 551, a "Messers Hall" coming out with a Mixed Granule powder.
The idea was to "combine quickness of ignition with continued combustion".
Tests on it though showed it to be not uniform in burn rates, for the simple reason of the grains settling out into their respective sizes.
(As mentioned above in this thread)
So, here we are, Greener told us how Mixing Grain sizes worked, Or rather Didn't work in his book of 1910, and we are three pages into it before the same info comes to light!

One other thing whilst I'm at it;
On page 550 on Explosives he says re shotguns;
"Small grained powders, whilst giving great velocity, generally cause the pellets to scatter much more rapidly than large grained powders"..
Much more is said, but don't want to copy more , LOL!

Very best,
Richard.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Brit,
I just wrote a long reply with quotes and lost the bloody lot!
In brief this time;
No 6 powder was coarser than our 2F, more like todays 1F.
For shotguns of no 4 was preferred widely. This grading system was the reverse of what we have now and can cause confusion.
4F is not mentioned, but No 4 Is (being like our 2F.)
To quote you;
"The debate is still open as this, quote, "was induced by a friend to employ a very fine grained black gunpowder of foreign manufacture, " is none conclusive and encourages assumption."

The information in my last post May be inconclusive, but one hard fact is remains;
The fine grained powder racked up *****Three Times***** the pressure of the normal and recommended rifle powder. (No 6 or again, about like 1F) This was proven in properly conducted tests and compared to tests on the regular ammunition.

He also says on page 550, that fine grained powders (used in shotguns) create great velocity, but usually scatter the pellets much more widely than larger grained powders.
Also says (P551) that a "Messers Hall" has come out with a mixed grain powder, the idea "to combine quickness of ignition with continued burn"
but that results were not uniform because of grains setting out into their respective sizes. (as we heard in the thread above)
Am posting this before I lose it again!

All the best,
Richard.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Thank you Richard.
First point in reply I am not confused regarding the reverse order of grading.
The second reply is the rifle example was a cartridge gun. Reloading equipment imparts far more compression to a charge than a muzzleloader. Add a crimp to the case and more resistance is added than in a muzzleloader!
It's not an equal situation.

In saying that a lever on a percussion revolver can exert great force, however that did not stop Mr Ruger recommending any grade, including 4f being used in his old army revolver!

Finally, there are examples in American museums of period musket cartridges which contain powder akin to 4f!

Mixing I don't advocate, never have, using it straight is an option, remains an option until someone comes up with scientific conclusive facts it is not an option.

As said by me over and over again. There is a far greater risk to one self by plugging the barrel or some other cavity being formed or driving a car!

ATB.

B.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Quite agree on plugging a barrel Brit!

Bill Ruger knew what he was talking about re. revolvers, but they have no room to really rack up pressure to detonate a charge.

Cartridge guns, or a long thin charge like heavy charges in a small bore M/L, (say .45 or less) will both produce increased pressure with the finer grained and quicker burning powder. Maybe Not at the same rate, but they Will produce it. (I refer you back to the tests above)

Re. Musket cartridges;
I wrote "Finer and quicker " above for a reason; This reason being that fine does not Always mean Quick!
The last of the Curtis and Harvey's powder was actually made in Germany, and though marked 1F, is finer than our 3 F to look at, but not so regarding the Burn rate.

I used to get some French powder back in the UK in the '70's, and it was very fine, just like 4F, but was to be loaded as per 2 F in regard to charges. Burn rate Not correlated to grain size again. We see by this that grain size is not everything.

All the best,
Richard.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Quite agree on plugging a barrel Brit!

Bill Ruger knew what he was talking about re. revolvers, but they have no room to really rack up pressure to detonate a charge.

Cartridge guns, or a long thin charge like heavy charges in a small bore M/L, (say .45 or less) will both produce increased pressure with the finer grained and quicker burning powder. Maybe Not at the same rate, but they Will produce it. (I refer you back to the tests above)

Re. Musket cartridges;
I wrote "Finer and quicker " above for a reason; This reason being that fine does not Always mean Quick!
The last of the Curtis and Harvey's powder was actually made in Germany, and though marked 1F, is finer than our 3 F to look at, but not so regarding the Burn rate.

I used to get some French powder back in the UK in the '70's, and it was very fine, just like 4F, but was to be loaded as per 2 F in regard to charges. Burn rate Not correlated to grain size again. We see by this that grain size is not everything.

All the best,
Richard.

Richard, can you explain what you mean about Rugers revolver and not racking up pressure enough to detonate?

'Detonate' is not the correct term for black powder! It deflagrates.

B.

 

[Juice Jaws]

I am done with this manure. You all can spend your time with this I have better things to do.
Good bye

And just think, 48 reply's ago, I just wanted to know if I could mix 4f with 3f. Oh, good bye 8 bore.

 

[M. De Land]

Well actually we are all shooting mixed powder granulation to some extent wither or not we intend to as there are fines ( broken grains) of any granulation size in each can. This can easily be seen by socking or re-sieving a fresh can. Some brands of powder are worse than others depending on graphite coating. Goex has far more fines in it than does Swiss as a general rule.
I also don't think one needs to specifically buy finer grain powder if preferred for priming, just sock the fines out of each new can of your coarser main charge powder and you will have all the priming you need.

 

[J. Paul]

I'm not suggesting selling BP, but if you do, I'd be real careful about who I sold it to as it is a no no according to BATF.

You can actually sell to someone else but you have to be able to show that you did not make a profit on the sale. That was pointed out to 4 or 5 of us at a shoot a couple years ago. there was an ATF employee there watching.

 

[arcticap]

And just think, 48 reply's ago, I just wanted to know if I could mix 4f with 3f. Oh, good bye 8 bore.

Only because you asked about loading 4F or mixed powders in a ,36 Navy revolver, I've read posts by folks who have loaded only 4F without issue.
No one wants to tell you to do it including myself, since the manufacturers don't condone it and each person makes their own decision.
But it's clear as day that revolver loading manuals are known for listing conservative maximum charges.
I've yet to read about a revolver blowing up from the moderate use of 4F, whether it was a mixed granulation or not,
Some folks actually prefer using only 4F in their ,36 Navy, just like some do in their .31's.
As long as the different potency of the mixed powders is accounted for, then a modern revolver in good condition shouldn't have any problems.
But don't take my word for it, use your own common sense, and only because you asked as if you really wanted to know.

 

[arcticap]

Juice Jaws, Don't forget, the revolvers are proof tested for a reason.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Only because you asked about loading 4F or mixed powders in a ,36 Navy revolver, I've read posts by folks who have loaded only 4F without issue.
No one wants to tell you to do it including myself, since the manufacturers don't condone it and each person makes their own decision.
But it's clear as day that revolver loading manuals are known for listing conservative maximum charges.
I've yet to read about a revolver blowing up from the moderate use of 4F, whether it was a mixed granulation or not,
Some folks actually prefer using only 4F in their ,36 Navy, just like some do in their .31's.
As long as the different potency of the mixed powders is accounted for, then a modern revolver in good condition shouldn't have any problems.
But don't take my word for it, use your own common sense, and only because you asked as if you really wanted to know.

Respectfully.
Mr Ruger instructed filling the old army chambers with any grade. He make no exception.

B.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Juice Jaws, Don't forget, the revolvers are proof tested for a reason.

Yes, because their chamber walls are usually alot thinner than a rifle or musket!
Respectfully.

B.

 

[M. De Land]

The thing I would worry about mainly is the mixing of dissimilar powder brands more than the granular size as far as safety. The granular size mixing would be more problematic from an accuracy standpoint because of the velocity variance it would cause.

 

[nhmoose]

Juice Jaws, Don't forget, the revolvers are proof tested for a reason.

Because the country they are made in REQUIRE proofing.
That is why. Made in USA none required.

 

[arcticap]

Because the country they are made in REQUIRE proofing.
That is why. Made in USA none required.

But the reason that countries require proof testing is because it helps to prove that the gun can safely handle excessive pressure for the safety of the general gun buying public.
Here we trust that the courts will enforce product liability laws or the company will cease to exist.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Richard, can you explain what you mean about Rugers revolver and not racking up pressure enough to detonate?

'Detonate' is not the correct term for black powder! It deflagrates.

B.

Brit,
In the quotes above, It is made plain that Long , and Narrow charges of fine powder were the problem in point. (145 grains in a .45.)
You ask why we do not see problems with Bill Ruger's Revolvers; This is for two reasons, and the blindingly transparent one is that you Can't fit that much powder in a revolver!
( 30 to 40 grains is all you can shove in most.)
The Second reason is because in a revolver, as soon as the ball is in motion, there is a sudden pressure drop as it transfers between cylinder and barrel breech.

Re. what powder does when it "goes off";

Deflagrats was not used in the era of which we speak. To them, if rammed tight and one end was consumed before the other, which was then crushed into a solid behind the projectile, this could cause a "detonation".
Call it what you will, the result is very much the same.

I won't be adding any further comments to this thread.
My only reason for saying what I have is for safety reasons.
It was proven over 100 years ago that fine grained and fast burning powder could cause a pressure wave that would blow a gun to hell In the Right Circumstances.
I have given the quotes and the test results.
What you chooses to do with this information is entirely up to you. It's now off my chest!

All the best, take care,

Richard.