More India made smoothies!?!?!

[Commodore Swab]

His comments were fair enough. If I had added how I have heard many complaints from company A, and most of the guns I have worked on from company A were of a lesser quality than company B. And while company B does have better pieces than company A I would rather deal with an importer in country. There is company C that has offered some more unique pieces that make company A's quality look great their prices tend to be much higher. Of course there is company D that tries to mix in lower quality pieces of even more questionable reliability and classify them all as made in country. Company E was offering pretty standard pieces with competitive pricing but they couldn't make enough money so they aren't selling anymore. I haven't really dealt with company F but with higher prices and even more complaints I haven't had the desire. . .

Rather than say bad things I figured I would try to say why I like veteran arms.

I consider all India pieces to be sold as pre assembled kits. As far as the flash guard on the musket it was installed due to the foolish NPS standards enacted for a customer.

Remember NEVER live fire an India built gun without proofing.

 

[Alden]

Rather than say bad things I figured I would try to say why I like veteran arms.

But to that point...

...your opinion (if you don't mind my stressing) on Veteran Arms defies credulity to those more familiar with this in North America. There is no logical support to believe, and few here (including I hope "VA" himself*) would agree he is the, or even a, market-maker on India-made import "guns" my friend.

And are they really getting better!?

:hmm:


*Our fellow member, whom we must remember wants to sell things, may always chime in on his influence on planning, design, marketing, production, and importation of India-made muzzleloaders.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Has Middlesex or Loyalist come out with anything significantly "new" in the last 5-10 years? What I was referring to in regards to the mortars is that rather than simply ordering from the same patterns they appear to be requesting new patterns built.

As far as getting better without handling the pieces as they arrive I can't say much considering most every importer will do "some" work and knows they will be getting pieces that are not useable.

There are many builders in India and without removing the barrel to check who left their mark on the barrel (who knows if it was the same builder on the rest of the gun) there isn't a way to tell one builders quality from another. I am however seeing fewer fully threaded frizzen and sear screws. The real quality control comes from what standards the distributor decides to list for sale and if they have done work on them. Unfortunatly the time required to make one "right" places the price outside of the competition.

 

[vetarms]

For me, half the fun of lurking on this forum is learning from Alden all of the things about my business that he knows and I don’t. :youcrazy: It is really quite humorous.

 

[Alden]

Well, everyone loves a good joke. Anything non-promotional to contribute to the discussion?

 

[spudnut]

Has Middlesex or Loyalist come out with anything significantly "new" in the last 5-10 years?

I thought I saw a picture of a miquilet loyalist wanted to do.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Now that would be a surprise and something that would garner my attention. Loyalist did try a wheellock a few years back but seemed to have some problems with availability and reliability.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Remember NEVER live fire an India built gun without proofing.

First, you can test fire your gun..., you cannot DIY proof it.... you can come very close if you magnafluxed the barrel before and after test firing....but a plain old Ãœber charge of powder and a ball or two isn’t proofing.

Second, you should do the same with any used Italian or Japanese musket or rifled musket, as well as any used Spanish rifle or musket. Proofing tells you the barrel passed the test when it left the proofing house, (and Japanese products aren't proofed btw). If the bore on a used gun is pristine, then you're probably fine, no worries, but if it isn't, then you have no idea if it has gone beyond safe due to ill cleaning. And bore scope is a much better idea than dropping a mirrored object down the bore and shining a line for a simple visual inspection.

LD

 

[Artificer]

Could not agree more, but I would also add to pull the breech plug on any such used gun to ensure it was threaded and fit properly, as well to better inspect the bore.

Gus

 

[Kansas Jake]

Gus, I understand the sentiment to pull the breach plug, but with many, such as Traditions and CVA this is not practical.

I wonder if anyone has first hand knowledge of any modern made reproductions that don't have obvious flaws coming apart with normal black powder loads.

 

[Artificer]

Gus, I understand the sentiment to pull the breach plug, but with many, such as Traditions and CVA this is not practical..

Yes, I agree, but most foreign guns I would still try to pull and check the breech plug.

I wonder if anyone has first hand knowledge of any modern made reproductions that don't have obvious flaws coming apart with normal black powder loads.

I have seen both original U.S. made guns and some repro's where previous owners have messed with and screwed up the breech plugs in the past. That is why I recommend it.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

That's a good point.

Actually I've seen two barrels from a respected supplier that charged a few bucks to install the breech plug before shipping, and did so in an American barrel, and it was short a fraction of an inch in both. If it's a new barrel one might want to take a hard look too.

LD

 

[kingsax26]

just my two cents, I wouls reccomend gettingt he lock checked out.. Dave person here on the forum did my lock....while it sparked good before when it returned it was 100% better. he was also able to fix a few small errors and somethings were just too far poorly done to fix at all. and this was a new gun from an *importer* also I second pulling the breech plug. we pulled mine to find out that the plug was almost 1/8-1/4 inch short and was held in by several threads... I had a new breech plug made and all was well

 

[spudnut]

put in a google search for loyalist miquelet

 

[spudnut]

tried to post but I cant get it

 

[Commodore Swab]

I did your search and found some pictures that had some problems loading. I tried to find them thru their website without any luck. I know down here there is a demand for the Spanish arms and would be glad to see some imported. At least then I would have assembled kits to start with rather than waiting for TRS.

So thinking about the irony if they do have newer pieces like this their website doesn't reflect what might really be available while TRS website reflects what you wish was available.

 

[spudnut]

Got a reply from Loyalist and they say they have these ,just not on their sight contact them direct

 

[Texas Gil]

My current project is almost complete, just a few more applications of Permalyn Finish & a lot of hand rubbing.

I got a Fusil de Chasse from Loyalist Arms. I requested no wood finish, and what I got seemed to be raw wood, yet saturated with some kind of oil finish. The wood needed shaping, buttplate needed grind-to-fit, and that nasty oil needed to be removed prior to staining. I used an anionic cleaner with surfactants ("Scrubbing Bubbles" bathroom cleaner). It foams up and needs an even scrubdown with bristle brush, rinse & repeat, to remove the absorbed oil. after rinse & dry, the wood is ready for scraping and sanding to shape, final fitting of rod pipes, buttplate and triggerguard. I stained with a water-based Laurel Mountain Forge American Walnut, which is about as dark as you can go. Any water or alcohol-based wood or leather dye will work the best. Sorry Minwax, you're fine for furniture, but not ideal for gunstocks anymore. It took multiple applications of stain to get it evenly dark, and sucks up the Permalyn Sealer and Finish like a sponge for the first 2-3 applications. I use a lint-free cloth material to apply it. Some use a brush, which would work better, since the wood is porous & really sucks up finish until sealed. Brushes are a PITA, since they need cleaning between applications, and you can apply easily 2X / Day.

The 10# Loyalist Fusil de Chasse has a flat-to-round 44" barrel and is a lot stouter than my 6-7# MVTC Ketland Musket, which has a round 36" barrel that is a lot lighter barrel construction. Either India made musket should be regarded as a kit gun. Sure you could likely fire one out of the box, but they look much better and more respectable when hand fitted & finished.

Doubtful teak is actually used for any rifle stocks - too expensive and dense and is more valuable for marine applications. My Fusil de Chasse took multiple applications of stain to get as dark as I could & actually looks like walnut & is denser and better grained than the Ketland wood.

This is my first time using Permalyn sealer and finish. It is lower viscosity than my BLO / Tung blend & varnishes quicker. My mix takes 24 hours to set up between applications, while the Permalyn wipes on and is set up in about 20 minutes and ready to apply more in about 4 hours. My mix fills open grain a little quicker, but the Permalyn sets up much faster.

Need help on this teakwood. Wanted a dark brown but can’t seem to hide all this figure. Any suggestions are appreciated. Even paint? Thanks, Gil

 

[Shotgunblast]

An oil based paint has been used on those stocks.

 

[Artificer]

Need help on this teakwood. Wanted a dark brown but can’t seem to hide all this figure. Any suggestions are appreciated. Even paint? Thanks, Gil

Hi Gil,

That isn't "figure" as much as especially open pores in the wood and that sucks up stain easier to give the blotchy appearance.

Teak is both open pore'd and oily. To successfully stain it, here's what I suggest.

Use chemical resistance gloves and use wads of paper towels dipped in acetone to strip what is on the stock now. You will have to do it more than once for the acetone to "lift out" that excess stain in the blotchy areas.

Once the stock looks pretty much the same color, use abrasive pads to knock off the whiskering of wood that stands proud, until it is fairly smooth.

Get a bottle of Birchwood Casey's Tru Oil and a bottle of Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol, if you don't already have the latter in your home. Use a CLEAN glass, plastic or foil small jar or bowl mix them in a ratio of 1to1. A couple teaspoons full each and stirred, should be enough to do one stock, though you can mix more if necessary. Rub this mixture HARD into the pores of the wood all over the stock. I normally try to rub the same amount (close as possible) all over the stock and go back over the stock a second time to see what areas will absorb more. Wipe off excess with your hands or a lint free cloth. Let the mixture dry and cure for at least 24 hours.

Once completely dry, sand down the stock with the last grit sandpaper you used to sand it initially. Vacuum or air blow or wipe off any sanding residue.

My favorite stain is Fiebing's Med Brown leather dye as it has a touch of red in it. If you don't want the red, then use the Dark Brown.
https://tandyleather.com/collections/fiebings/products/fiebings-leather-dye
Put your chemical resistance gloves back on (heavy grade dishwashing gloves will also work) and wad up some paper towels, shake the bottle of dye WELL before opening it and hold the wad over the hole of the bottle to get dye on the paper towel wad. Spread the dye as evenly as possible and wait a couple hours. Then rub the dickens over the whole stock with a terrycloth wash cloth rag or tea towel rag.

Take it OUTSIDE in normal/natural light to see if the stain coat is even and dark enough for you. I have used extra stain coats when not dark enough or sometimes thinned a "too dark" stain coat by lightly wiping with acetone soaked wad of paper towels.

Use your Tru Oil/Alcohol 1to1 mixture and rub it in hard all over the stock to where it is tacky before moving on. LET IT DRY/CURE for at least two days, if not three or four. Rub it down lightly with a GREY Scotchbrite abrasive pad you find in the paint section of a big box hardware store. This is just to "knock off" any bumps or roughness in the finish. Then again rub the dickens with a terry cloth rag.

Two to four coats of Tru Oil lightly abraded and rubbed down hard with the terry cloth rag after each coat will give you a stock finish that is not shiny, but rather a warm glow.

Gus