Muzzle velocity Hawken vs Longrifle

[Sun City]

Well...I'm west of the Mississippi and proud that I am! As an OLD FART.....I'm of the opinion that a whole lot of extra BS is thrown into the ML game because of the fact that newbies can't forget their modern rifle thinking and are too interested in things that again in my view don't mean doodley squat in the ML field of endeavor! With .45 to .54 caliber rifles which in most cases might be the heavier barreled Hawken type rifles a charge of anything from 80 to 110 grains weight of 2F works well in most cases regardless of type of patch or lube or just spittle being used for lube! And I'm speaking too strictly a round ball being used as a projectile, not any type of conical! The best way in the world to keep yourself 'screwed up' in the ML world is to try something different every day and listen to every whim uttered by a few that don't know any more than Adams Allfox! And if you buy a piece of junk....you're gonna be screwed to begin with!!

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

I think very gun has its own personality. I use a chronograph for that reason. I take the manufacture's maximum charge and reduce it by 40 percent. Then increase the powder increment by ten percent to maximum charge. I never exceed the manufacture's maximum charge. I weight out five powder charges for each charge increment. With my loading procedure I try to maintain a standard deviation of less than 10 ft/sec. I do a velocity average for each powder increment. I feel very confident in this average. I can make a good decision on which powder increment would be best. There will be a point where there will be a LITTLE gain in velocity for the powder being used. The shooter must decide what is best. I believe each an every gun is different and must be tested. For me that is what makes a good day at the range.

Good Shooting everyone

 

[longcruise]

.....I'm of the opinion that a whole lot of extra BS is thrown into the ML game because of the fact that newbies can't forget their modern rifle thinking and are too interested in things that again in my view don't mean doodley squat in the ML field of endeavor

I agree. I see a lot of concerns over concepts that don't apply in the ml world.

That said I love to tinker and I've learned a lot from it. And, I'll continue to tinker but still realize that much that can be learned is pretty much non-essential.

 

[longcruise]

. There will be a point where there will be a LITTLE gain in velocity for the powder being used

My only comment on that is to test your ideas. Chronograph and a notepad. When I tested the 45 I was surprised. It's actually more fun to find that what is believed and is conventional wisdom just ain't so. Even when it wrecks your own convictions.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

If you have noticed, I mentioned about the low standard deviation of 10 ft/sec for my powder charge increments. I worked on a loading procedure to get this for my increments. I did not want any overlapping standard deviation. Even thou one average velocity may be higher than the other, if you have overlapping standard deviation figures, you can not prove one average is higher than the other. On one 54 caliber I was testing, I got to 80 grV and went to 90 grV the average velocity went down. I reshot the test and the same thing happened again. With the small standard deviation I knew the test was good. I like using the chronograph and the laws of diminishing returns. I am old and enjoy setting at the bench and testing guns. The club members are always asking what I am doing.

Good Shooting Everyone

 

[Mike in FL]

Online, oblaze will probably not find much in the way of meaningful information. In the period of 1985 through 1995 lots of information was being published on muzzleloading firearms. One such publication was "The Gun Digest Blackpowder Loading Manual" published in 1995. It contained good information and topics on the care and use of muzzleloading firearms. Specifically there were tables that detailed the performance of 768 loads for 156 blackpowder rifles. There were traditional rifles in percussion and flint along with some in-line rifles and a few black powder cartridge rifles.

Presently the Fourth Edition of the manual is in print and can be found online. It will have the same information as in the Third Edition, which I have and added information primarily on modern muzzle loaders.

Other than the old Lyman Black Powder Manual that all sorts of tables for muzzle velocity and trajectory for various lengths of barrels, there is some specific information on loads and little formulas to provide the % increases based on barrel length and powder to apply to a rifle one would have in their possession.

Few examples are in the Third Edition. Most rifles are half stock in 50 caliber and most long rifles are in 32, 36, or 45. I did find two rifles in 50 caliber, the 1816 Remington and the Mountain State Mountaineer. Both had barrel lengths of 39" and shot round ball of 0.490" diameter using a 100 grain volume measure of FFg GOEX (at that time branded as GOI) powder. Muzzle velocity of the Mountaineer was 1921 feet per Second and the Remington was 1926 feet per second. A representative half stock with a 34" barrel, The New Model Ithaca Hawken using the same round ball and 110 grains volume of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1912 feet per second. A Thompson Center Hawken rifle with a 28" barrel had a muzzle velocity of 1456 feet per second. The Lyman Deerstalker with a barrel of 24" using 80 grains of FFG had a muzzle velocity of 1301 feet per second. They didn't use 100 grains of powder in the shorter barrels. One last entry for the Green Mountain drop in 32" barrel using 100 grains of FFG GOEX had a muzzle velocity of 1809 feet per second.

The conclusion is that longer barrels will have more muzzle velocity. The percent change will depend on ball diameter, patch thickness, patch lubrication and quality of the powder.

The loading manuals can be found. The Fourth Edition of 2003 is out there. 20 year old information is better than none, I suppose.

https://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-B...k+powder+loading+manual&qid=1698756125&sr=8-4

Duh.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

I thought I would show a test using a Cable's 54 caliber Hawken caplock rifle. Each powder increment had a standard deviation of 10 ft/sec or less. In this test, I had one powder increment at 7 ft/sec. This rifle had a maximum charge of 100 grV.

60 grV - 55.5 grW - 1224 ft/sec
70 grV - 65.1 grW - 1322 ft/sec
80 grV - 74.6 grW - 1394 ft/sec
90 grV - 84.4 grW - 1467 ft/sec
100 grV - 93.3 grW - 1540 ft/sec

Velocity change from one powder increment to another

60 grV to 70 grV - 98 ft/sec
70 grV to 80 grV - 72 ft/sec
80 grV to 90 grV - 73 ft/sec
90 grV to 100 grV - 73 ft/sec

You can see the change between powder increments. The shooter can make a choice on what to use. The more powder used the higher the cost and recoil. This test shows the powder efficiency. The shooter may want to check the grouping from one powder increment to another. I have had club members shoot through my chronograph with their muzzleloaders. The shooters were surprised with standard deviations of 50, 60, and sometime 70 ft/sec. It is the little things in the loading procedure that drives up the standard deviation. If the shooter has wide changes in velocity, the trajectory will be effected. I have noticed considerable change between rifles. Sometimes shorter barrels will have higher velocities than longer ones. Even rifle by the same manufacture and caliber will vary considerably. It is what ever the shooter wants. I just have fun taking a gun testing the powder increments. I have learned a lot from my chronograph.

Good shooting

 

[Herb]

 

[reddogge]

After reading this whole thing I come to the conclusion you guys can complicate anything.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

Sorry -- I am into ballistics and have a private range to shoot on. I really enjoy measuring powder and shooting through a chronograph. I have the math and physics background to work with the data. Most people don't know that ballistics is a separate field in physics. Where the normal physics courses stop with the demonstration of dropping and projecting balls to show they hit the floor at the same time, that is where the ballistics starts with standard bullet drag functions. The Sierra reloading manual has a very good section showing this. A good loading procedure for a muzzleloader must be followed to keep the standard deviation as low as possible for a good average muzzle velocity. I try to maintain less than 10 ft/sec standard deviation for a 10 shot velocity test. I also change to a spherical drag function (GS) for calculating the trajectories. This is my thing and I will help anyone.

Good day everyone

 

[M. De Land]

Sorry -- I am into ballistics and have a private range to shoot on. I really enjoy measuring powder and shooting through a chronograph. I have the math and physics background to work with the data. Most people don't know that ballistics is a separate field in physics. Where the normal physics courses stop with the demonstration of dropping and projecting balls to show they hit the floor at the same time, that is where the ballistics starts with standard bullet drag functions. The Sierra reloading manual has a very good section showing this. A good loading procedure for a muzzleloader must be followed to keep the standard deviation as low as possible for a good average muzzle velocity. I try to maintain less than 10 ft/sec standard deviation for a 10 shot velocity test. I also change to a spherical drag function (GS) for calculating the trajectories. This is my thing and I will help anyone.

Good day everyone

Have you ever done any experimenting with drop tube powder compacting ? I have never used weight measurements with any kind of Blackpowder but rather volumetric and although I have three chronographs I've not used them much with muzzle loading but quite extensively with Black powder (brass cartridge) black and Duplex loading. Some ES have been in the single digits with cartridge loads.
It seems like it's harder to get low ES with percussion or flint ignition but this is just an unproven notion on my part.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

I have tried compacting a black powder charge. I keep going back to chemistry class and how to measure dry and liquids chemicals. Our class experiments were set up show the importance of proper measurement. In fact I try to eliminate any compression at all in the load. I use making a cake as an example. Lets say we use a cup of flour. You can over fill and scape off level as we did in chemistry. Or you can fill and tap several times and then fill the space. I know you will get a different taste in the cake.

When I am trying to find the powder measure grV to scale weight grW, I will try several different spouts on my powder flask. When I find one that meters every good, I will measure grV and weigh grW ten powder charges. I will do this until ten charges will have a standard deviation of less than 10 grW. This will give me a good average weight grW for the rest of my powder charges.

This technique will go a long way in getting a low standard deviation. I always try for less than 10 ft/sec standard deviation in my muzzle velocity. If you are into ballistics, an uniform velocity is necessary for calculating a trajectory for the ball flight. Also, I use the Oehler Ballistic Explorer program. I shoot a 54 cal Hawken rifle with PRB. When I calculate the trajectory I switch from the G1 drag function normally used to GS (spherical) for round balls. I have an Oehler 35P chronograph that I bought in 1987. I do have to work whether flint or cap is used to get the low standard deviation.

This is what I do and I have fun at it. Other shooters use the powder measures only. Sometimes this is required by match rules or in these walks that clubs set up to simulate field conditions.

Good luck and have a good day.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

I am attaching a powder table for converting black powder in grV to grW for use in my Hawken 54 caliber. You can see the items used in the header. Owners manual sets the maximum charge of 100 grV for FFg powder. Hopefully everyone knows that black powder expands and contracts with changes in humidity. This table was made in the winter and the humidity was at 29%. The pieces of black powder should be very small giving a larger amount of pieces in the measure. I reduced the maximum load by 40% and increased 10% at a time. As I mentioned in the other post, getting consistency in muzzle loading shots requires a lot of work. If you set up a test for comparison, consistency is a must in loading procedure, chronograph set up, and loading components.

A side note: I have visited several forts on the eastern seaboard. In the fort tours, the guide would mentioned the powder barrels would be turned each month to keep the moisture level consistent in the powder.

 

[Irish lad]

That link you provided is incredibly useful for load development. For anyone reading this who hasn't checked it out, please do. I played with it for less than 5 minutes and learned a whole lot.

Thanks for this, very interesting

 

[M. De Land]

Hey all,

I've been doing some research online but I can't seem to find any meaningful information on the matter.

I have been trying to figure out what kind of muzzle velocity you can expect out of a similar caliber/powder charge Hawken rifle vs a Longrifle. I understand there are many varieties of each and I'm asking kind of a vague question, but a vague answer will satisfy.

Basically wondering what % increase you get from the extra barrel length/time for powder to burn, if any at all? Is a Hawken long enough to burn all the powder?

Thanks!

Truth is after 30-32 inches the weight and length of a longer barrel are not really a practical velocity, power, sighting and handling advantage with Black Powder and patched ball.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

Here's a table of three flintlock's that I shot over my chronograph. Load data and barrel lengths are at the top. I only chronographed one PRB from the 50 Cal. as IIRC, I just was tired!! All rifle barrels are GM. Pistol is a DeHass.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

What chronograph did you use?

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

What chronograph did you use?

A Chrony Chronograph. I've had it for over ten years but it still proves accurate.

 

[Sonny from Vincennes]

I like to watch the range and see who is using what. I have an Oehler 35P chronograph. Do you measure from the gun muzzle to the chronograph for calculating the muzzle velocity?

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

I like to watch the range and see who is using what. I have an Oehler 35P chronograph. Do you measure from the gun muzzle to the chronograph for calculating the muzzle velocity?

I place the Chrony about ten feet away on a tripod. I don't measure it exactly as I figure what it's telling me is close enough for my purposes.