muzzle work help

[rp77469]

It does look cool when there is grooves cut in the muzzle however I honestly believe it was done for more than aiding starting a ball or for decoration.
In a time when cutting and or being super square to the bore axis was difficult I honestly believe it was a way to regulate a barrel to the sights.
By making it decorative as all around the muzzle circumference one could hide the deeper file cut that is doing the regulating.
I have no data to support this theory but have performed a similar task with shotguns. I just dont believe they would do decorative work in that area of a rifle!

Tell me more. I have a custom rifle that has rarely been shot in the 30 years I have owned it. It shoots 5-6 inches low at 25 yards. Raising the muzzle at that distance to zero it covers the complete target. The barrel is an old Dixie barrel, so not one of the ones milled so the barrel is concentric. Is reworking the muzzle a possible solution, or should I contact Mr. Hoyt about some barrel work? I suppose I could put on a 3/4 inch high rear sight.

 

[springfield art]

I have coned one barrel with the proper coning tool. But, on other barrels, I got a set of grinding balls from Brownells. They grind the inner portion of the crown, just touching the lands and grooves. It is consistent all around the barrel. No high or low spots.

Brownell's is a treasure for gun-nuts to find useful, specific tools!

 

[Britsmoothy]

Tell me more. I have a custom rifle that has rarely been shot in the 30 years I have owned it. It shoots 5-6 inches low at 25 yards. Raising the muzzle at that distance to zero it covers the complete target. The barrel is an old Dixie barrel, so not one of the ones milled so the barrel is concentric. Is reworking the muzzle a possible solution, or should I contact Mr. Hoyt about some barrel work? I suppose I could put on a 3/4 inch high rear sight.

That is very drastic!
Might be worth an experiment.
If you do it you basically need in your case to vent the bottom of the muzzle sooner than the top.
It dosnt take much.
Whilst I have done it on shotguns I have not on rifles but I would love to try.
If say you did it in the way of the old rifles that looks decorative you just want a few more strokes on the bottom portion of the muzzle.
It's a file and try method probably best done at the range.

 

[andy52]

.
Coning lightly will work and produce an even job, not like filing would give you issues. I have done this for years with no issues thanks to Joe Woods tools. There's probably someone you know or possibly a member here that could loan you a coning setup?


.

This would be my thinking also. You wouldn't have to fully cone the barrel but could use that tool to smooth it out.

 

[andy52]

Crowns need to be as perfectly concentric to the bore as possible. That is best done in a lathe. I use a sickle shaped cutter to make a crown that is like a micro trumpet. It a gradual taper that starts a few degrees off parallel to a round over in about 0.100" distance. The largest part only need to be a few thousands over groove diameter. I then polish it to 600 grit to remove all tool marks

Your right about making cuts they do need to be concentric to the bore but a lathe is not necessary for that job. I've crowned dozen of barrels without a lathe. With the right hand cutters and proper bore pilot you can cut just about any type of crown you would like. Here's the last one I did that way it's a .44 revolver that had a bulged barrel. I took off 2 inches of the barrel, cut to 90% and made a 45% crown. I could have done a 11% or a recessed just as easily.

 

[Buck Conner]

That is very drastic! Might be worth an experiment.

Borrow your friends rifle, try it out. If it doesn't work, nothing lost .......


.

 

[JCKelly]

Betcha ain't nobody here ever seen a genuine antique "short starter", except for a bench rifle.

Everyone just pushed the ball into the muzzle. That is how old rifles were designed. Dad taught me to shoot an old family Shuler, just pressed the ball into the muzzle.

 

[Buck Conner]

Betcha ain't nobody here ever seen a genuine antique "short starter", except for a bench rifle.

Everyone just pushed the ball into the muzzle. That is how old rifles were designed. Dad taught me to shoot an old family Shuler, just pressed the ball into the muzzle.

.
Over the years we have seen and owned many antique muzzleloaders and some had short starters (they were usually the fancier guns of the earlier periods or European builds). The more expensives guns of the time seemed to have theses extra accessories.

.

 

[Herb]

i need some advice. i have one of my 62 Cal rifles i want to open the rifling a little bit at the muzzle. i don't want to cone it, the ball will start a little better and it will look cool also. i have saw photos but i have never done one. i assume it is done with a sandpaper wrapped dowel. any info will help,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You can open it up with a wooden dowel and sandpaper. I do. This was a .50 caliber Green River barrel and a copy of the Kit Carson Hawken I built. I bought a straight 1/2 inch dowel at the hardware store and cut a 12 inch piece. I turned down one end to 3/8" to chuck into my drill. Next I cut a taper and superglued 120 grit emory cloth onto it. Put that in the bore, the dowel holds the paper concentric. Turn on the drill and feed it slowly into the bore. Change the paper as needed. You can adjust the taper and paper thickness to cut a smooth taper about 3/8" deep. No lathe needed. Some original Hawkens are made to look like this, as if there is no rifling. Others have the grooves filed back with a small needle file, so the muzzle looks like a gear, as in the Carson and Bridger Hawkens and others. I have done that. For .62 caliber, use a 5/8" dowel. This is easy to do. Filing the grooves back in may allow the patching to pucker, easing loading. It does not affect accuracy, you can eyeball the filing to make it even for all grooves. I use a small triangular needle file of just the right width.

 

[M. De Land]

i need some advice. i have one of my 62 Cal rifles i want to open the rifling a little bit at the muzzle. i don't want to cone it, the ball will start a little better and it will look cool also. i have saw photos but i have never done one. i assume it is done with a sandpaper wrapped dowel. any info will help,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Two things are important in any crown work. Concentric and square ! Both are hard to achieve without proper, rigid tooling designed for the purpose! A crown can look like both of those parameters have been achieved but when measured can be who-fully inaccurate. Bench shooting over sand bags or barrel vice is the only way to tell if accuracy has been achieved.

 

[Billy Boy]

It does look cool when there is grooves cut in the muzzle however I honestly believe it was done for more than aiding starting a ball or for decoration.
In a time when cutting and or being super square to the bore axis was difficult I honestly believe it was a way to regulate a barrel to the sights.
By making it decorative as all around the muzzle circumference one could hide the deeper file cut that is doing the regulating.
I have no data to support this theory but have performed a similar task with shotguns. I just dont believe they would do decorative work in that area of a rifle!

I have seen some Inuit peoples rifles from the last generation and they ‘regulated’ them by filing on the muzzle. It shoots towards the short side of the muzzle. Must have worked for them, killing a polar bear with a pop gun and having grand children later....

 

[Britsmoothy]

I have seen some Inuit peoples rifles from the last generation and they ‘regulated’ them by filing on the muzzle. It shoots towards the short side of the muzzle. Must have worked for them, killing a polar bear with a pop gun and having grand children later....

Interesting.
I am surprised it shoots towards the short side!
With shotguns I found they shoot towards the long side. The long side being only around .030", in other words, tiny.

 

[Herb]

Two things are important in any crown work. Concentric and square ! Both are hard to achieve without proper, rigid tooling designed for the purpose! A crown can look like both of those parameters have been achieved but when measured can be who-fully inaccurate. Bench shooting over sand bags or barrel vice is the only way to tell if accuracy has been achieved.

 

[Herb]

This is my first copy of the Bridger Hawken shot from bench at 100 yards. Hand filed muzzle treatment.

 

[M. De Land]

This is my first copy of the Bridger Hawken shot from bench at 100 yards. Hand filed muzzle treatment.
[/QUOT

 

[GregLaRoche]

I am surprised to see all of these comments talking about using abrasives or files by hand, to work on a muzzle. In my opinion, if you want to maintain the best accuracy, all muzzle work should be done with the barrel mounted in a lathe, with fixed cutting tools. The only exception are tools especially made to fit in the barrel to re-cut the crown, I don’t think they can be used to cone a muzzle. Does anyone else agree with me?

 

[Professor flintlock]

This is my first copy of the Bridger Hawken shot from bench at 100 yards. Hand filed muzzle treatment.

Try a.535 ball and watch the powder measure maybe you can shoot a tight group . I guess you can cut your barrel off a bit and try re crowning if that doesn't work.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I am surprised to see all of these comments talking about using abrasives or files by hand, to work on a muzzle. In my opinion, if you want to maintain the best accuracy, all muzzle work should be done with the barrel mounted in a lathe, with fixed cutting tools. The only exception are tools especially made to fit in the barrel to re-cut the crown, I don’t think they can be used to cone a muzzle. Does anyone else agree with me?

How did they do it 300 years ago?

 

[M. De Land]

I am surprised to see all of these comments talking about using abrasives or files by hand, to work on a muzzle. In my opinion, if you want to maintain the best accuracy, all muzzle work should be done with the barrel mounted in a lathe, with fixed cutting tools. The only exception are tools especially made to fit in the barrel to re-cut the crown, I don’t think they can be used to cone a muzzle. Does anyone else agree with me?

Bingo! Good work can be done with abrasive and files if good tooling is not available but it takes some training,skill and patients.

 

[Billy Boy]

Interesting.
I am surprised it shoots towards the short side!
With shotguns I found they shoot towards the long side. The long side being only around .030", in other words, tiny.

My only experience was with a few small cal lever actions so modified.