muzzleloading machinists of old

[dd832]

Don't forget R.H. McCrory.

I bought his "A Muzzle Loading Pistol You Can Build" in 1963 and made one and his "The Modern Kentucky Rifle" in 1964 and made one. I still have copies of both pamphlets today and I still look at them. They were typed on a type writer and had numerous hand draw prints & small B&W photos. The Kentucky Rifle booklet had full size prints included too. You can still find copies on ebay.




A lot of the building questions you see on this forum could be answered easily if you had read these booklets!

Mike

 

[zimmerstutzen]

"Hoppy" Hopkins of H&H barrel works. I visited their shop a few times when it was located in Maryland. Hoppy always had some crazy new thing he thought up and was doing. He rebarreled cap and ball revolvers and turned them in to competition target pistols. Designed rifling for a muzzle loader based on Harry Pope's rifling that had choked bores.. I remember he made up some special barrels for a particular match. rather short 72 caliber barrels for a 25 yd offhand rifle barrels just for a specific match. they were only for very light charges. He made my target barrels. Once when I stopped to visit, he had the machinery running all over the place and was shooting a fancy international match rifle across the shop above the machinery. We shot all afternoon. But I didn't like his parrot. Tried to bite me a few times.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

You did qualify by saying "American" gunsmiths. If Europe were included you would be way-way wrong. Going back to the 15th century some extraordinary clocks, watches and music boxes were being made by, what had to be, genius and mastermind machinists. I once had the opportunity to spend a day with Lynton MacKinzie (who should be listed with the greats of the period you mentioned). He had locks and triggers made over 200 years ago that were absolute marvels of engineering and craftsmanship. And, in my opinion, to this day we still have quite a few absolute greats turning out ml rifles and parts. We just do not hear their names much as their work is usually limited to a relatively small area of geography.

They were excellent gunsmiths and inventors, but were they machinists? I know of Emil Pachmayr, who barely touched on muzzle loaders. But he was at his height at the turn of the 19th to 20th century in Europe. I had one of his Tyrolean Schuetzen rifles with interchangeable barrels. One 8.15 x 46R centerfire and one 4 mm zimmerstutzen.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Leonard Day was buiding rifles back then. He was a gentleman and a scholar in the truest sense.

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

Hershel House
Jim Chambers
Wallace Gusler
John Bivins
Gary Brumfield
All were building back then and some still are today. I wouldn't think they would call themselves machinists though.

 

[tomm9903]

I get your drift and agree. I think that in order to be a good gunsmith you need to be a machinist as well. A machinist can transition over and be a gunsmith it is how my father managed to make and fix rifles/pistols. If you couldn't buy the part he made it.

When I had my shop there were many times that I would make a part for a long out of production gun. Retired now but still have my equipment.

 

[LME]

When I had my shop there were many times that I would make a part for a long out of production gun. Retired now but still have my equipment.

Why is it that we keep all our tools and know deep down we will
never be able to use them again? I have a shop full of tools just gathering dust and can't seem to let them go? I also have a lot of stock that has to go as well? Now, I want someone to tell me who that lying ***** is that said these are our golden years? LOL!

 

[roundballman]

Jack Rouse of Kentucky
I have a fine English sporting rifle he built. It is marvelous!

 

[11Bravo]

"Hoppy" Hopkins of H&H barrel works. I visited their shop a few times when it was located in Maryland. Hoppy always had some crazy new thing he thought up and was doing. He rebarreled cap and ball revolvers and turned them in to competition target pistols. Designed rifling for a muzzle loader based on Harry Pope's rifling that had choked bores.. I remember he made up some special barrels for a particular match. rather short 72 caliber barrels for a 25 yd offhand rifle barrels just for a specific match. they were only for very light charges. He made my target barrels. Once when I stopped to visit, he had the machinery running all over the place and was shooting a fancy international match rifle across the shop above the machinery. We shot all afternoon. But I didn't like his parrot. Tried to bite me a few times.

When I built my .58 H&A underhammer in the late 70s I used a H&H barrel specially rifled for shooting minis. Glad to hear a story about him.

 

[Rifleman1776]

They were excellent gunsmiths and inventors, but were they machinists?

I don't want to go there, messing with definitions.

 

[LME]

I don't want to go there, messing with definitions.

For what it is worth the word, (machinist) applys to anyone regardless of when and where they operated their bussiness. If someone makes parts for any mechanical device he/she is a machinist by deffinition?

 

[Rifleman1776]

For what it is worth the word, (machinist) applys to anyone regardless of when and where they operated their bussiness. If someone makes parts for any mechanical device he/she is a machinist by deffinition?

Then the watch makers were machinists.

 

[flconch53]

Ok

Why is it that we keep all our tools and know deep down we will
never be able to use them again? I have a shop full of tools just gathering dust and can't seem to let them go? I also have a lot of stock that has to go as well? Now, I want someone to tell me who that lying ***** is that said these are our golden years? LOL!

Well I sold all my tools and ended up buying half of them over again. I missed the tinkering and making littlethings. Now I make things when the urge hits me

 

[Artificer]

'Machinists of old'? Now that would be Peter Gonter in Lancaster County, Durs Egg here in England - THEY were machinists of 'old'.

'In England a hundred miles is a long way. In America a hundred years is a long time.'

Every time I go to the other half of the village in which I live, I pass over a bridge build from tithes in the late 12th century. Our village has an entry in the Domesday Book of 1086 and the parish church has parts of the structure dating back to the late 900's.

From the Domesday Book, tr. into the modern vernacular -

Land of King William​

Households​

• Households: 35 villagers.

Land and resources​

• Ploughland: 20 ploughlands. 5 lord's plough teams. 13 men's plough teams.
• Other resources: 2.0 lord's lands. Meadow 80 acres.

Valuation​

• Annual value to lord: 12 pounds in 1086; 12 pounds in 1066.

Owners​

• Tenant-in-chief in 1086: King William.
• Lord in 1086: Ranulf brother of Ilger.
• Lord in 1066: King Edward.

Other information​

• This entry mentions multiple places: Alconbury; [Great] Gidding.
• Phillimore reference: Huntingdonshire 1,6

Now THAT's old.

I got EXTREMELY excited when my sister doing family genealogy research connected our family to the progeny of Durs Egg. However, I was disappointed it was not a direct ancestor of mine. Turns out my GGGG? Grandfather's Brother married one of Egg's progeny. (Missed it by THAT much, as Maxwell Smart used to say. LOL)

Blacksmith's were the first machinists, in that 10 minutes of proper forge work saved one an hour of filing. Proper use of handfiling on metal can be something to behold. They also made molds into which lock parts could be forged for the earliest/simplest types of NEAR interchangeability of lock parts.

I would suggest the first machinist in the gun trade was John Hall, who invented all sorts of machines on which interchangeable parts could be made.

Gus

 

[VAN]

Not long ago I was fortunate to visit the shop in Woodbury, Ky. of the great gunmaker Hershel House with a friend who knows him. He was very gracious in showing us the gun builds in progress and how he goes about creating his masterpieces. I had read Foxfire Volume 5 which has a lot of coverage on early and later muzzleloader builders including Hershel so it was something I will never forget. Foxfire Volume 5 is a great read on these men if you have not discovered it you should pick up a copy.

 

[poker]

Gordon Kahnke from Redwood Falls Mn. Built some mighty fine pieces in those years. Pistols that were highly accurate and capable of 100 gr loads with no problems. A couple different rifle models too.

 

[Boston Bill]

Why is it that we keep all our tools and know deep down we will
never be able to use them again? I have a shop full of tools just gathering dust and can't seem to let them go? I also have a lot of stock that has to go as well? Now, I want someone to tell me who that lying ***** is that said these are our golden years? LOL!

Because they are a part of what makes us who we are

 

[GREENSWLDE]

'Machinists of old'? Now that would be Peter Gonter in Lancaster County, Durs Egg here in England - THEY were machinists of 'old'.

'In England a hundred miles is a long way. In America a hundred years is a long time.'

Every time I go to the other half of the village in which I live, I pass over a bridge build from tithes in the late 12th century. Our village has an entry in the Domesday Book of 1086 and the parish church has parts of the structure dating back to the late 900's.

From the Domesday Book, tr. into the modern vernacular -

Land of King William​

Households​

• Households: 35 villagers.

Land and resources​

• Ploughland: 20 ploughlands. 5 lord's plough teams. 13 men's plough teams.
• Other resources: 2.0 lord's lands. Meadow 80 acres.

Valuation​

• Annual value to lord: 12 pounds in 1086; 12 pounds in 1066.

Owners​

• Tenant-in-chief in 1086: King William.
• Lord in 1086: Ranulf brother of Ilger.
• Lord in 1066: King Edward.

Other information​

• This entry mentions multiple places: Alconbury; [Great] Gidding.
• Phillimore reference: Huntingdonshire 1,6

Now THAT's old.

How about Ezicel, Jon and Jo together with the Watsons. We have a castle in town,started in about 900 and part destroyed in our C/W.There is a tythe packhores bridge a short distance away.My ancesters were drawing 0.0065"Silver Plated wire in 1756. Still have 3 spools about 1/2Lb each. Would they be classed as Machinist ??

 

[oldwood]

Going back further , m/l "machinists" , took the freshly made gun barrel and shaped it into a usable part. I can't imagine how to make a usable file , let alone the rest of the process. Gun barrel iron was supposed to be so soft and ductile , it could be peeled off with a scraper of some sort , then filed. Think i'll just stay with Colerain.

 

[Urban Coyote]

Wow! Some of the names mentioned in these post were in vogue when I started in this game. Many came up as part of regular discussion in muzzleloading back then. There's a lot of interesting muzzleloader history, especially from the 1970s and 1980s, that's likely being forgotten. Anyway, this post has me feeling a little old. Well, time to get out of my rocker and let the cat out.